MarioWiki:Proposals

Current time: Sunday, May 19th, 19:11 GMT

Proposals can be new features (such as an extension), the removal of previously-added features that have tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action is taken. "Vote" periods last for one week. Any user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so (not, e.g., "I like this idea!"). All proposals must be approved by a majority of voters, including proposals with more than two options. For past proposals, see the proposal archive and the talk page proposal archive.

A proposal section works like a discussion page: comments are brought up and replied to using indents (colons, such as : or ::::) and all edits are signed using the code {{User|User name}}.

How to

Rules

1. If users have an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with the other users, who will then vote about whether or not they think the idea should be used. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and writing guidelines. Proposals must include a link to the draft page. Any pages that would be largely affected by the proposal should be marked with {{proposal notice}}.
2. Only registered, autoconfirmed users can create, comment in, or vote on proposals and talk page proposals. Users may vote for more than one option, but they may not vote for every option available.
3. Proposals end at the end of the day (23:59) one week after voting starts, except for writing guidelines and talk page proposals, which run for two weeks (all times GMT).
   • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is one week later on Monday, August 8, at 23:59 GMT.
4. Every vote should have a strong, sensible reason accompanying it. Agreeing with a previously mentioned reason given by another user is accepted (including "per" votes), but tangential comments, heavy sarcasm, and other misleading or irrelevant quips are just as invalid as providing no reason at all.
5. Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. Voters can remove or rewrite their own vote at any time, but the final decision to remove another user's vote lies solely with the administrators.
   • Users can also use the comments section to bring up any concerns or mistakes in regards to the proposal itself. In such cases, it's important the proposer addresses any concerns raised as soon as possible. Even if the supporting side might be winning by a wide margin, that should be no reason for such questions to be left unanswered. They may point out any missing details that might have been overlooked by the proposer, so it's a good idea as the proposer to check them frequently to achieve the most accurate outcome possible.
6. If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(banned)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
7. No proposal can overturn the decision of a previous proposal that is less than 4 weeks (28 days) old.
8. Any proposal where none of the options have at least four votes will be extended for another week. If after three extensions, no options have at least four votes, the proposal will be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
9. All proposals that end up in a tie will be extended for another week. Proposals with more than two options must also be extended another week if any single option does not have a majority support: i.e. more than half of the total number of voters must appear in a single voting option, rather than one option simply having more votes than the other options.
10. If a proposal with only two voting options has more than ten votes, it can only pass or fail with a margin of at least three votes, otherwise the deadline will be extended for another week as if no majority was reached at all.
11. Proposals can only be extended up to three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, the proposal fails and can only be re-proposed after four weeks, at the earliest.
12. All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
13. If the administrators deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to remove it at any time.
14. Proposals can only be rewritten or deleted by their proposer within the first three days of their creation (six days for talk page proposals). However, proposers can request that their proposal be deleted by an administrator at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that canceled proposals must also be archived.
15. Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting or otherwise fixing up pages. To organize efforts about improving articles on neglected or completely missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
16. Proposals cannot be made about promotions and demotions. Users can only be promoted and demoted by the will of the administration.
17. No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.
18. Proposals must have a status quo option (e.g. Oppose, Do nothing) unless the status quo itself violates policy.

Basic proposal and support/oppose format

This is an example of what your proposal must look like, if you want it to be acknowledged. If you are inexperienced or unsure how to set up this format, simply copy the following and paste it into the fitting section. Then replace the [subject] - variables with information to customize your proposal, so it says what you wish. If you insert the information, be sure to replace the whole variable including the squared brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information", not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but what each voting section is supporting must be clearly defined. Such options should also be kept to a minimum, and if something comes up in the comments, the proposal can be amended as necessary.

---

===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|[enter your username here]}}<br>
'''Deadline''': [insert a deadline here, 7 days after the proposal was created (14 for writing guidelines and talk page proposals), at 23:59 GMT, in the format: "May 19, 2024, 23:59 GMT"]

====Support====
#{{User|[enter your username here]}} [make a statement indicating that you support your proposal]

====Oppose====

====Comments====

---

Users will now be able to vote on your proposal, until the set deadline is reached. Remember, you are a user as well, so you can vote on your own proposal just like the others.

To support, or oppose, just insert "#{{User|[add your username here]}}" at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's proposal. If you are voting on your own proposal, you can just say "Per my proposal".

Talk page proposals

All proposals dealing with a single article or a specific group of articles are held on the talk page of one of the articles in question. Proposals dealing with massive amounts of splits, merges or deletions across the wiki should still be held on this page.

For a list of all settled talk page proposals, see MarioWiki:Proposals/TPP archive and Category:Settled talk page proposals.

Rules

1. All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom) using {{TPPDiscuss}}. Include a brief description of the proposal while also mentioning any pages affected by it, a link to the talk page housing the discussion, and the deadline. If the proposal involves a page that is not yet made, use {{fake link}} to communicate its title in the description. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links. Place {{TPP}} under the section's header, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with {{SettledTPP}}.
2. All rules for talk page proposals are the same as mainspace proposals (see the "How to" section above), with the exceptions made by Rules 3 and 4 as follows:
3. Voting in talk page proposals will be open for two weeks, not one (all times GMT).
   • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, it ends two weeks later on Monday, August 15, 2011, at 23:59 GMT.
4. The talk page proposal must pertain to the article it is posted on.
5. When a talk page proposal passes, it should be removed from this list and included in the list under the "Unimplemented proposals" section until the proposed changes have been enacted.

List of ongoing talk page proposals

• In Template:Species infobox, expand "Relatives" guidelines to include variant-type relationships with significant differences between species (discuss) Deadline: May 12, 2024, 23:59 GMT May 19, 2024, 23:59 GMT
• Rename Moneybags to Moneybag (enemy) (discuss) Deadline: May 13, 2024, 23:59 GMT May 20, 2024, 23:59 GMT
• Delete Memory Card (discuss) Deadline: May 23, 2024, 23:59 GMT
• Add a Composers Subsection to Template:Themes (discuss) Deadline: May 28, 2024, 23:59 GMT
• Include Rainbow Coaster & Rainbow Downhill back in the Rainbow Road article (discuss) Deadline: May 28, 2024, 23:59 GMT
• Split the contents of the blimp page (discuss) Deadline: May 28, 2024, 23:59 GMT
• Create a Rewrite-remove template (discuss) Deadline: May 30, 2024, 23:59 GMT
• Decide whether to redesign the Main Page (discuss) Deadline: June 1, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Unimplemented proposals

Proposals

Merge the Wrecking Crew and VS. Wrecking Crew phases into list articles, Axis (ended February 24, 2022)

Do not consider usage of classic recurring themes as references to the game of origin, Swallow (ended March 9, 2022)

Split Mario Kart Tour character variants into list articles, Tails777 (ended May 4, 2022)

Enforce WCAG Level AA standards to mainspace and template content, PanchamBro (ended May 29, 2022)

Change how RPG enemy infoboxes classify role, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 18, 2022)

Trim away detailed special move information for all non-Mario fighters, Koopa con Carne (ended January 30, 2023)

• ^Note: This has yet to be done with with several non–Super Mario fighters who still have their own page; namely, Banjo, Fox, Inkling, Isabelle, Kirby, Link, Mega Man, Pac-Man, R.O.B., Sonic, and Villager.

Classify the Just Dance series as a guest appearance, Spectrogram (ended April 27, 2023)

Establish a standard for long course listings in articles for characters/enemies/items/etc., Koopa con Carne (ended June 8, 2023)

Consider filenames as sources and create redirects, Axis (ended August 24, 2023)

Add tabbers to race/battle course articles, GuntherBB (ended November 18, 2023)

Remove elemental creatures categories from various Super Mario RPG enemies, Swallow (ended January 11, 2024)

Standardize the formatting of foreign and explanatory words and phrases in "Names in other languages" tables, Annalisa10 (ended February 7, 2024)

Merge Super Mario Bros. (film) subjects with their game counterparts, JanMisali (ended April 18, 2024)

Remove profiles and certain other content related to the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia from the wiki, Koopa con Carne (ended April 30, 2024)

Trim Mario Kart course galleries of excess Tour stuff, Shadow2 (ended May 18, 2024)

Talk page proposals

Split all the clothing, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 12, 2021)

Split the various reissues of Mario Bros., Doc von Schmeltwick (ended April 22, 2022)

Split machine parts, Robo-Rabbit, and flag from Super Duel Mode, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 30, 2022)

Expand source priority exception to include regional English differences, LinkTheLefty (ended January 14, 2023)

Add product IDs in game infoboxes, Windy (ended March 18, 2023)

Remove the list of Super Smash Bros. series objects, Axis (ended May 10, 2023)

Split Special Shot into separate articles by game, Technetium (ended September 30, 2023)

Convert the lists of episode appearances for television series characters into categories, Camwoodstock (ended November 22, 2023)

Change the Super Mario 64 DS level section to include more specific character requirements, Altendo (ended December 20, 2023)

Split the Jungle Buddies from Animal Friends, DrippingYellow (ended December 22, 2023)

Make bestiary list pages for the Minion Quest and Bowser Jr.'s Journey modes, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 11, 2024)

Merge the ghost Bats and Mice from Luigi's Mansion to their respective organic counterparts from the later games, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 20, 2024)

Split Strobomb from Robomb, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 20, 2024)

Split the NES and SNES releases of Wario's Woods, SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (ended March 27, 2024)

Merge Mii Brawler, Mii Swordfighter, and Mii Gunner to Mii, TheUndescribableGhost (ended March 28, 2024)

Split Mario's Time Machine (Nintendo Entertainment System), or the Super Nintendo Entertainment version along with both console versions of Mario is Missing!, LinkTheLefty (ended April 11, 2024)

Remove non-Super Mario content from Super Smash Bros. series challenges articles, BMfan08 (ended May 3, 2024)

Merge Stompybot 3000 with Colonel Pluck, DrippingYellow (ended May 4, 2024)

Split "Team Dinosaur" from The Dinosaurs, Blinker (ended May 15, 2024)

Writing guidelines

None at the moment.

New features

None at the moment.

Removals

None at the moment.

Changes

Reconsider mainline status of Super Mario Maker, Super Mario Maker 2, and Super Mario Run

Hi, we're doing this again! As you may or may not know, back in 2018, I ran a successful proposal to get the wiki to consider Super Mario Land, Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins, Super Mario Maker, and Super Mario Run as entries of the mainline Super Mario series. Based on the sources and information I had at the time, the decision felt sound, and the wiki's userbase agreed. However, in the five years that have passed since then, new information has come to light that has led to me reconsidering my opinion on the subject in regards to Super Mario Maker and Super Mario Run.

For starters, my main source on this argument came from Nintendo's official timeline page, which alongside the games most commonly agreed to be mainline, included Maker and Run. In the time since, this page has been updated, and with the inclusion of games that are unambiguously re-releases of existing games, such as New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe and Super Mario 3D All-Stars, it raises the question of if this is a reliable list of "distinct entries in the mainline Super Mario series" at all. Additionally, in official dev interviews released in the buildup to the release of Super Mario Bros. Wonder, Wonder is treated as the first mainline 2D Mario game in 11 years, with both Maker games being brought up as if they're something else entirely. I could also bring up the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia, which treats Maker as a spin-off as well.

So, if being on Nintendo's official timeline doesn't necessitate a game being a distinct mainline entry, and official material from Nintendo treats the Maker and Run games as spin-offs, then should we still include them as mainline entries in the Super Mario series? Under this proposal, the Makers and Run would be treated as "Related games" in a similar vein to Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island and New Super Luigi U, and would be excluded when numbering the mainline Mario series (Wonder would be treated as the 19th mainline game rather than the 22nd). It would also, somewhat annoyingly, lead to us having to reorganize the "History" section for pages on a bunch of characters, objects, and enemies, so apologies in advance.

Relevant pages are Super Mario (series), Super Mario Maker, Super Mario Maker 2, and Super Mario Run.

Proposer: WayslideCool (talk)
Deadline: November 7, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Stop considering all three games mainline

1. WayslideCool (talk) Per proposal.
2. JanMisali (talk) Per proposal. I've done extensive research on the subject of which games people consider to be part of the mainline series, and while there isn't anything close to a total consensus, most people do agree that the Maker games and Run are not mainline.
3. Camwoodstock (talk) That makes sense to us. If Nintendo's stopped really considering the Makers and Run as mainline games as of Wonder's release, it probably seems only fair to stop counting them ourselves. Especially seeing as people already don't really treat them as mainline games if The Video Essay You've Probably Seen By Now If You're A Longtime User Of This Wiki That Was Linked Above™ is to be trusted.
4. ToxicOJ (talk) Second choice.
5. Jdtendo (talk) Per proposal. Run is an auto-runner game rather than a regular platformer, and Makers are not centered around the builtin levels but rather around user-created levels.

Change nothing, keep all three games as mainline

1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - The confusion here stems from conflating the overall Super Mario series with the specialized Super Mario Bros. subseries, which is made up of the various 2D games starring Mario and Luigi (ie, omitting the Land, Maker, and Run games, as well as, of course, the 3D games). I have the bones of a page for a SMB series article here.
2. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per Doc von Schmeltwick.
3. Axis (talk) Per Doc von Schmeltwick.
4. Hewer (talk) Per all, plus these games were considered part of the series in 35th anniversary stuff, so I think the official stance is clear. And as much as I like the video the supporters bring up, what fans say isn't a valid argument, see Blue Shell.
5. Tails777 (talk) Per all.
6. LinkTheLefty (talk) You're the doc, Doc.
7. Okapii (talk) Per all.
8. DrippingYellow (talk) Per Doc. I'd also like to point out that "entirely new" Mario games as mentioned in the interview could very well exclude the Mario Maker series, since their game styles are all derived from earlier Mario games. Either way, what exactly is "mainline" is not determined by the developers, but by Nintendo themselves (i.e. Miyamoto saying Zero Mission isn't a mainline Metroid game wouldn't mean anything). I don't feel like recent re-releases being placed on the list devalues that in any way.
   (I neglected to mention when I first wrote this comment that there's a good reason why Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia seems to treat Super Mario Maker like a spinoff: both the game and the book were released as a tie-in for Mario's 30th Anniversary (little over a month between them), it makes perfect sense that the Encyclopedia would cover it separately.)
9. TheUndescribableGhost (talk) I mean, it's too early to tell if Nintendo is actually going reconsider these games as a spin-offs. It's a trick business, because there's the series and franchise, but this is far too early to make a judgement. Also, the way encyclopedia treated Mario Maker was more the recent game released at the time. I mean, who knows. A new book could exclude these games, but given the situation right now, this is the safest option.
10. Koopa con Carne (talk) Per Doc; they're stating in the interview that Wonder the first new 2D game in the Super Mario Bros. series since NSMBU. Mario Maker and Mario Run aren't Super Mario Bros. titles, but they are Super Mario titles, as listed on the American Mario site. There's a distinction. Also not sure how Some Guy's "extensive research" has any relevance here; it's a survey with a sample constituting like, what, 0.001% of Mario fans? Fan opinion is not taken into consideration on this wiki anyway, unless it's confirmed to act as a significant backdrop for a decision by Nintendo.
11. Sdman213 (talk) Per all.
12. Conradd (talk) Let's wait and see what Nintendo thinks of these games in the future before making a decision.
13. Mateo (talk) This shouldn't even be discussed in the first place. Like it was mentioned before here and in other pages, Super Mario Bros. Wonder is officially (and consistently: https://www.nintendo.com/us/whatsnew/nintendo-direct-june-2023-recap/ https://store-jp.nintendo.com/list/software/70010000068687.html even in said interview) considered the first Super Mario Bros. game (or full-fledged/traditional game, it means the same distinction) since New Super Mario Bros. U but all of them are officially considered mainline games and are listed as such in official sites (and the ports are virtually the same game so of course they'd include them). The encyclopedia is not a reliable source and it's outdated, as seen in its own page. We all should follow the facts, not personal preferences. Unless their status is officially changed (which is unlikely), this is the way it should be. Also Per all other reasons.
14. ExoRosalina (talk) Per all for some reason; because I think Run, Mario Maker series could consider as mainline
15. Arend (talk) Per all. Considering the Land, Run and Maker games as spinoffs to the Super Mario Bros. subseries should be fine enough, and I think that's what Nintendo meant when not including these games when stating Wonder is the latest Super Mario Bros. game since New U.
16. Jazama (talk) Per all.

Consider Run mainline, but not Maker and Maker 2

1. Sparks (talk) I thought it over now and I say that Super Mario Run plays like a traditional Mario 2D game, although on mobile instead of consoles. Like what I said in my comment below, I think the Mario Maker games are just sandbox games, and thus I don't consider them mainline Mario games. Super Mario Run is the normal Mario gameplay, and thus I think it is a mainline Mario game.
2. Seandwalsh (talk) Per Sparks. Super Mario Run has pretty consistently been considered mainline despite what many fans arbitrarily want to believe. Since the Super Mario Maker games have become their own beast I think their status is a little more up in the air.
3. LadySophie17 (talk) Per all.
4. Swallow (talk) My preferred option.
5. MegaBowser64 (talk) Per all. Super Mario Run is platforming, no matter what you want to call it, so it should be main series. Mario Maker features drastically different, non-platforming gameplay at its core, so it should not be main series.
6. DesaMatt (talk) Per all.
7. Super Game Gear (talk) I've always felt that Super Mario Maker games were their own thing.
8. ToxicOJ (talk) First choice.
9. OmegaRuby (talk) Per all. The Maker games are less games and more tools or platforms to create games. Although a story mode is present, it mostly serves as one big ideas book for people to take notes from, as levels are made in the editor with items all available to the player, save a few.
10. Killer Moth (talk) Per all.

Comments

Personally, I think the Mario Maker games are just games where players around the world could share and post levels online (I know Mario Maker 2 had a story mode but still), but Super Mario Run is different. It's not a sandbox game and has worlds, levels and many playable characters. I'm kinda leaning towards keeping Run as a mainline Mario game, but I'll think it over first. Sparks (talk) October 31, 2023, 12:46 (EDT)

It's worth noting that Nintendo is extremely inconsistent with regards to which games are part of this series, and that this wiki already doesn't use the exact set of games found in official sources as its definitive list. There isn't an "objective" answer here; any decision for how to classify the games in this series will be a decision. Attempting to reach a definitive answer that isn't based on fan interpretation is literally impossible. Categorically, everyone here is a fan, and we are interpreting things. There's no way around that. Even if you point to one specific list Nintendo has used and say "yes, this is the definitive Canonical list of mainline Super Mario games", the choice to prioritize that source over other sources would itself be subjective fan interpretation. JanMisali (talk) 17:07, October 31, 2023 (EDT)

The whole wiki could technically be considered fan interpretation, but that's fine if it's fan interpretation of official sources, not fan interpretation with no official basis (e.g. "Hotel Mario isn't mainline because Nintendo never counts it as such" is fine, "Hotel Mario isn't mainline because most people don't think it is" is not). Anyway, I don't think I'd say Nintendo's stance is extremely inconsistent - the only differences I notice between the current official website lists are that the Japanese version has The Lost Levels, Mario Maker 3DS, SMB 35, and Wonder while the English one doesn't. The two Maker games and Run are always considered part of the series in these official sources, so even if the wiki's current list is inaccurate (I've honestly started considering reclassifying Mario 35 while writing this comment), the games concerned by this proposal aren't part of that inaccuracy. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 18:27, October 31, 2023 (EDT)

There are, however, more than just those two sources. I think "Super Mario Run isn't mainline because the developers of Super Mario Bros. Wonder don't consider it to be mainline" is just as valid as "Run is mainline because there's a website that puts it in the same list as the mainline games and some but not all reissues of mainline games". Which source you prioritize is entirely a matter of opinion, at which point I think what the most common opinion happens to be can absolutely be a relevant deciding factor. JanMisali (talk) 18:38, October 31, 2023 (EDT)

@Doc von Schmeltwick: Question: Would you consider the Run and Maker games, and maybe even the Land games, spinoffs of the Super Mario Bros. subseries? All of them feature 2D platformer gameplay in the same vein as other Super Mario Bros. games (in fact, they all feel closer as Super Mario Bros. titles than even Super Mario Bros. 2), with Run in particular featuring the same style of graphics and similar music as New Super Mario Bros. U, and Maker in particular featuring four gameplay styles based directly on four Super Mario Bros. games. I personally feel it would be wrong to not consider them Super Mario Bros. titles (or at least Super Mario Bros.-adjacent titles) purely because there's no "Bros." in the title. Keep in mind that we have dozens of Mario spinoffs despite the main series and franchise as a whole being called Super Mario, and that 90% of these spinoffs don't include "Super" in front of "Mario" in each title, so the full "Super Mario Bros." name having to be in the title shouldn't be the deciding factor IMO.
I understand that you might think this has little to do with the proposal itself, but I feel this is also relevant to your vote, since you brought your concept for a Super Mario Bros. subseries page up there. rend (talk) (edits) 19:29, November 1, 2023 (EDT)

The Super Mario series and Super Mario Bros. series share the same first four games, so by definition anything exclusive to the former is a spin-off of the latter. The reason the Super Mario Bros. series was brought up was to explain why the Wonder devs considered it the first Bros. game since NSMBU. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 17:56, November 2, 2023 (EDT)

Until the statement from the Wonder devs, I included Run as well. The Maker series would count, except 2 has the Super Mario 3D World style, which is of course part of the Super Mario 3D subseries instead. As for how they'd relate to each other, I'd consider Land/3D/Maker/Run to be derivative of Bros., but not direct subseries of it. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:04, November 2, 2023 (EDT)

I get where you're coming from about this Super Mario and Super Mario Bros. subseries distinction Doc, but bringing all of this up raises a very important question to me, which is... where did you get your list of Super Mario Bros. games from? It feels weird to me to make a point about how "fan interpretation doesn't matter" in the context of deciding which games are mainline, only to include in your counterargument... a list of games that, as far as I am aware, is largely derived from your own interpretation. We can infer that Nintendo has acknowledged the existence of a Super Mario Bros. subseries, and that Maker and Run are not part of it but U and Wonder are, but past that, any decisions we'd make are largely based on conjecture. Yeah, it's reasonable to assume that if U is part of the series, then so are the other three New Super Mario Bros. games, but without an official statement, can we really be certain? For all we know, the title New Super Mario Bros. 2 could be treated as proof that New Super Mario Bros. Wii shouldn't count. WayslideCool (talk) 10:25, November 3, 2023 (EDT)

There's this list of nine Super Mario Bros. games, but (if Google Translate is to be trusted) the wording implies that they're just examples and it's not an exhaustive list. Regardless, what matters to the proposal is that the Maker and Run games are Super Mario but not Super Mario Bros. What else is in the SMB series is irrelevant, and it's also not something that's even covered in the mainspace as far as I'm aware. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 11:11, November 3, 2023 (EDT)

Pretty sure Blhte confirmed that was simply a list of random side-scrollers Mario's been in. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:47, November 3, 2023 (EDT)

Amittedly, this is very silly, and we know for a dang fact this is not what Doc Von meant by this--this is just us bringing it up for the sake of being as thorough as possible, even to a highly illogical extreme. But it is worth noting that, uh, defining what counts as a mainline Mario platformer as hinging entirely on the inclusion of the word "Bros" not only leads to weird exclusions such as the two Lands, but... um... some rather silly inclusions, to put it lightly. ;P ~Camwoodstock (talk) 21:12, November 2, 2023 (EDT)

But of course; I'm only talking about the side-scrolling platformers based around Mario (and usually Luigi). Granted, I was the one who wanted to include Super Paper Mario and Super Mario Kart as "related" games to the Super Mario series, so maybe it's not so far off of a comparison after all :P Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:49, November 3, 2023 (EDT)

I feel obligated to ask this: what other lists of mainline Mario games have been made by Nintendo over the years? Genuinely not sure where else Nintendo has addressed this. DrippingYellow (talk) 19:55, November 1, 2023 (EDT)

I kinda feel the need to draw attention to a pretty major point I made in the proposal, which is "How much can we really trust the Nintendo of America Super Mario Website as a canonical list of which games should be considered mainline?" This list excludes Super Mario Bros: The Lost Levels, includes Super Mario 3D All-Stars but not Super Mario All-Stars, treats recent rereleases like New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe as distinct entries, but not earlier ones like Super Mario Advance 4: Super Mario Bros. 3. I get the impression what we're seeing is less "canonical Nintendo-approved list of which games should be counted as distinct mainline entries" and more "Nintendo is a corporation that wants to promote their recent titles and is throwing in anything recent that vaguely falls under the Super Mario banner". Like, I don't know how bold a stance this is, but I don't think it's completely out of the question that a game can be a Super Mario game without being a mainline entry. (Hi Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island!) WayslideCool (talk) 10:25, November 3, 2023 (EDT)

The list is ordered by US release date, so it makes some sense that they would exclude The Lost Levels because of its weird release history outside Japan. The Japanese version of the site, ordered by Japanese release date, does have The Lost Levels. And ports are all listed separately on the Super Mario (series) article anyway because that's just how the series pages are organised. The official list being used to promote games does not change the fact that it is Nintendo's official list of Super Mario games, and also isn't a reason that we should discount specifically Maker and Run any more than it's a reason we should discount the Land games or the 3D games or whatever else we feel like excluding. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 11:11, November 3, 2023 (EDT)

Well, we did decide that Bowser's Fury and Maker for 3DS go in the "Ports, remakes, and compilations" category, despite it being arguable that both games could very well count as full sequels. And yet Super Mario Bros. 35, which again is on the same list of games without any distinction being made between it and other titles, doesn't count as a mainline entry or a reissue? I'm not suggesting that strictly adhering to Nintendo's apparent classification of these games would be better than the way we're doing it now, but we definitely are currently already discounting a few games entirely on the basis that Nintendo's classification of them doesn't make sense. JanMisali (talk) 11:43, November 3, 2023 (EDT)

You do have a point with Mario 35 like I mentioned earlier, but if there are discrepancies between our classification and Nintendo's, I think the solution is to fix them rather than use that as a reason to become even less accurate. Also, how exactly could those ports be considered "full sequels"? A port with new content is still a port and still falls under that section, I really don't see how there's an argument to be had there. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 12:14, November 3, 2023 (EDT)

Playing devil's advocate here, Bowser's Fury is a completely new game that just happens to also include a port of a previous game. Maker for 3DS, while mechanically nearly identical to Maker, has completely original levels, making its single-player "campaign" exactly as different as, say, The Lost Levels is from Super Mario Bros. Is that enough of a reason to justify actually calling them mainline entries? No, but it is enough, I think, to question exactly how objective the reasoning currently being used to disqualify a handful of the games on "the official list" really is. Clearly, not all of the games on this list "really count" as mainline Super Mario games, and it's not as simple as just pointing to some of them and saying "okay, these are reissues, so they go somewhere else". JanMisali (talk) 12:47, November 3, 2023 (EDT)

In the case of the ports specifically, I don't think it's really an argument of mainline vs. not. Note how in history sections on the wiki (Blooper for an example), the "Super Mario series" section covers ports as well since they're considered part of the series (this is even true for things that appeared in the ports but not the original like Toadette). They're listed separately in series pages and navboxes just because it's important for organization to distinguish between entirely new games and re-releases of old ones. And I still don't think the fact of them being ports is really up for debate - Bowser's Fury and the pre-made levels in Mario Maker aren't standalone games so they can't be counted separately from the ports. To get back to the topic of the proposal, I still don't see a good enough reason to distrust the official list and decide that we should exclude specifically Maker and Run. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 14:28, November 3, 2023 (EDT)

I think whether a game counts as mainline or not boils down to platforming. This is the core of the mainline Mario series. And in the case of the Mario Maker games, platforming is not at the core of it. The central concept, the critical quality of these games, is creating levels. Sure, platforming is a part of it, but say you open up one of the games for the first time. You've already played most of the 2D Mario games, and you're excited to see what this game has to offer. You don't go into course world and start playing levels, you explore the new, central concept of the game: Making levels. That's why it's called Super Mario "Maker" and not Super Mario Player. Sure, you can play user-created levels, but how would you be able to do that without users creating levels?!? Think about it. Users create levels, users play user-created levels. If it weren't for the creating aspect of the game, there would be no game! BOWSER... (talk) 10:49, November 4, 2023 (EDT)

Platforming is still a very central part of the Mario Maker games, you can't make levels without playing them and playing other people's levels in Course World is also a major aspect of the games (not to mention the pre-made levels they all have). But more importantly, what you personally think makes a game mainline isn't what matters - what matters is that Nintendo officially considers them to be mainline games. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 11:02, November 4, 2023 (EDT)

Per Hewer. While it's true that level creation is a core aspect and the whole point of the Super Mario Maker games, it should be noted that platforming is just as important, since, well, you'd be platforming in the levels that were created. If it wasn't important, why give the option to play those levels in the first place? Why does the creator need to test the levels in order to ensure they're fully playable before submitting them online? Why would there be a separate mode in which players can play a collection of random levels created by other players, which unlocks an extra goodie when completed every time?
Not to mention that the back of the box notes three points: Play, Create, Share; and also lists the slogan "Everyone can play it, anyone can make it".
Also, the levels can be styled after one of four Super Mario Bros games, and even Super Mario 3D World in the sequel, and all styles look, sound, and play almost identical to the original games. The Maker games use five core Super Mario games as a core part of its core aspect; it's basically a core Super Mario platformer through and through with a level editor. rend (talk) (edits) 13:17, November 4, 2023 (EDT)

Fair enough. Just as a thought though, I see the Mario Maker games as more of an adaptation of previous games, using older content as a tool to create a new gameplay mechanic. It barely has any new content in terms of what can be used in future games, and is basically just "squash a whole bunch of old stuff together and throw in a level editor". Another point to be made is the lack of actual content created by Nintendo in the Mario Maker games. Sure, they made some levels, but it's just like in Geometry dash where no one really plays the official levels. Just because of the massive differences between the Mario Maker games and the average 2D Mario game, I think it should be a spin-off. I'm not saying there aren't tons of similarities, it's just that the similarities aren't overly prominent. BOWSER... (talk) 14:44, November 4, 2023 (EDT)

There are enough original things in the Super Mario Maker games to give them their own identity (certainly not "barely any" no matter how you slice it, probably not far off from how many things some of the NSMB games introduced and definitely more than The Lost Levels introduced). And your claim that there is a "lack of actual content created by Nintendo" is untrue. And "massive differences" also isn't much of an argument when this is the same series that includes both Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario Odyssey. But again, most importantly, how you see the games doesn't matter, how Nintendo sees them does. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 15:11, November 4, 2023 (EDT)

i rest my case --BOWSER... (talk) 21:21, November 4, 2023 (EDT)

Make coverage of playable Toads and playable Yoshis consistent with each other

Currently, this wiki has separate articles for Yellow Toad (New Super Mario Bros. series) and Blue Toad (character), but does not have separate articles for the different color Yoshis that are playable in Super Mario Run and Super Mario Bros. Wonder, instead covering them all under the Yoshi (species) article. This inconsistency is a little bit silly, as there isn't really anything that differentiates the Toads that couldn't also be said about the Yoshis. While I don't have a particularly strong preference for how this should be changed, I do think it would be a good idea for this to be changed to become more consistent.

Here are what I consider to be the main options for how to resolve this inconsistency:

1. Create new articles for all the different color Yoshis. These would not, for example, discuss every light-blue Yoshi, but only the specific character named Light-Blue Yoshi who is playable in Super Mario Bros. Wonder. This would be analogous to how the articles about the playable Toads are written.
2. Merge the Yellow and Blue Toad articles into the Toad (species) article. This would be analogous to how the playable Yoshis are currently covered.
3. Merge the Yellow and Blue Toad articles into one singular "Yellow Toad and Blue Toad" article, and leave the coverage of Yoshis as-is. (Creating a separate article for all the different color playable Yoshis collectively would be more consistent, but is also a bad idea.)
4. Merge the Yellow and Blue Toad articles into the main Toad article, and move the coverage of the different color playable Yoshis into the main Yoshi article. That is, treat these characters purely as variations of Toad (character) and Yoshi (character), like Pink Donkey Kong Jr. or players 3 and 4 from Mario Bros. (Game Boy Advance).

Personally, I think of these the third option is the most sensible, and would be the least disruptive.

This affects Yellow Toad (New Super Mario Bros. series), Blue Toad (character), Yoshi (species), and potentially Toad, Toad (species), and Yoshi.

Proposer: JanMisali (talk)
Deadline: November 7, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Create new articles for individual playable Yoshis

1. Tails777 (talk) This has always been a goal for me. Multi colored Yoshis have had consistent playable appearances and consistent differences across multiple games. Beyond just Super Mario Run and Super Mario Bros. Wonder and regardless of whether or not this option covers such things, this is the step I'd rather take.
2. SeanWheeler (talk) I would prefer individual pages of every character that exist over merged pages of duos.

Merge Yellow Toad and Blue Toad with Toad (species)

1. Somethingone (talk) Primary choice; I agree this situation is the same as the colored Yoshis, but I don't necessarily think that splitting a member solely because they are playable is a good rule to follow. There's little indication that the two toads are unique beyond them being playable.
2. Blinker (talk) Per proposal, I agree that something should be merged here. Considering they've been collectively referred to as "Toad" in U Deluxe and the Wonder direct, I think this makes more sense than the "Yellow Toad and Blue Toad" option. Not sure about the character/species distinction though. The line between the two pages feels quite arbitrarily drawn, for the most part, but there are instances of both playable and non-playable Toads in the character article, so if playability isn't the criterion, might as well play along with the Toad article's being written as though it's about an individual, I guess.
3. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Per proposal, this is probably the closest to what I want in the long run.
4. Okapii (talk) I don’t mean to diminish the amount of effort and care that went into the pages for Blue and Yellow, but tbh I just don’t think there is enough merit to warrant these two having their own pages, or even a shared one. Taking a look at the talk pages for both shows that there has been confusion for years as to what even constitutes an appearance for these two, because they are so generic in design, personality (or lack thereof), and ability.
5. Camwoodstock (talk) Seeing as we nixed unique articles for each individually colored Yoshi long ago, this definitely makes more sense to us. We don't really have a dedicated Green Toad article, so these two having articles feels like a remnant of a long-bygone era of the wiki.
6. TheUndescribableGhost (talk) omekapo jelo Toad en laso Toad, mi wile ken sina. Jokes aside, I initially thought of the idea of merging to two into their own article as a duo, but the more I thought about it, it's actually debatable on whether or not Nintendo has made any distinction on who is exactly the Yellow or Blue Toad in many games. I know it's a controversial stance, but the same issue applies to Birdo and Boom Boom. Whenever Nintendo puts these characters in a game, they don't make it very clear on who the Birdo or Boom Boom is. Compare them to Toad, Lakitu, and Kamek in comparison to their species. There's enough information to tell the characters and species apart here. In this case, we are talking about two colors with flat personalities. I'm not going to deny that Nintendo wasn't trying to make these Toads special, but with the advent of tons of Toad colors in other Super Mario games, there's almost a level of speculation on who the actual Yellow or Blue Toad is. Both colors appear in the Mario Baseball games and there is even another Yellow Toad in the Toad Brigade. That one in particular has a unique Japanese name while the two Toads are actually given generic Japanese names (if only they went for Bucken-Berry and Ala-Gold). Super Mario Maker 2 also has a Blue Toad in Mario's construction crew and Nintendo doesn't specify if he's the same dude. I don't agree with merging these with the Toad character, because the Toad modifier only really applies to one game and in that case, the generic instance of "Toad" in that game while probably intentionally meant to reference the Toad, was really an attempt to merge these characters into one. I mean, it's not like we're missing out on that detail. So until Nintendo starts to
7. ToxicOJ (talk) Per all.
8. Ray Trace (talk) Per Camwoodstock and TheUndescribableGhost.
9. Jazama (talk) Per all.

Merge Yellow Toad and Blue Toad into "Yellow Toad and Blue Toad"

1. JanMisali (talk) Per my proposal.
2. Somethingone (talk) Second choice, better than nothing and seems to be how they're handled now.
3. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Per proposal, this is probably the most clear-cut.
4. LadySophie17 (talk) This makes the most sense to me, like other character pairs that have appeared in the series.
5. Seandwalsh (talk) Second choice. Only option that makes sense of the ones proposed. I would just oppose any change but nobody’s backing that horse.
6. Hewer (talk) Funnily enough I was planning on a proposal to get rid of the identifiers on the Yellow Toad and Blue Toad articles before this one started. Anyway, the two always appear together and seem to be considered the same character in NSMBU Deluxe, so a merge makes sense the more that I think about it.
7. Tails777 (talk) Secondary option. These two Toads normally appear in the same games at the same time with the same roles. I'd argue they're more deserving of shared articles than Ashley and Red were (even if they are split now)
8. Archivist Toadette (talk) Sure, let's do this. I'm not a fan of the "New Super Mario Bros. series" identifier anyways, since it's technically a sub-series, but that's a discussion for another time.
9. Waluigi Time (talk) They have enough of a significant role that I don't think we should just be burying them in the Toad species article, but there's not really anything you can say about one that you can't say about the other, so this seems reasonable enough.
10. DesaMatt (talk) First choice.
11. MegaBowser64 (talk) per all of yall.
12. 7feetunder (talk) I had already suggested this on Yellow Toad's talk page previously, and would have eventually proposed the merge myself had this proposal not been made first. Yellow Toad and Blue Toad appear in the exact same games and have the exact same role in each one, so much so that some of their article sections are nearly word-for-word identical. The only thing that really sets them apart is their color.
13. Swallow (talk) My preferred option

Merge Yellow Toad and Blue Toad with Toad, and move coverage of individual playable Yoshis to Yoshi

1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Per proposal, leaning less toward this than the others for now, though.

No change

1. LadySophie17 (talk) Second option. They are fine as is.
2. Seandwalsh (talk) First choice.
3. DesaMatt (talk) Second choice.

Clarify and expand coverage of recurring musical themes

Before we get into the proposal, let me lay out some helpful definitions for terms I will use.

Definitions

• Another Game: A game that is neither the original game nor a remake of the original game.
• Any Form of a Theme: The original version, an arrangement, a past arrangement, a remix, a past remix, a vocalization, or a past vocalization of a theme.
• Appearance: The inclusion of any form of a theme in a piece of media, either in its entirety or only a part.
• Arrangement: A new rendition of a theme that features different instrumentation, pitch, tempo, rhythm, or timbre than the original version. It can be a rendition of the theme in its entirety or a rendition of only a part of the theme.
• Media: Games, remakes of games, movies, TV shows, albums, official live performances, sheet music books, etc.
• Original Version: A theme as it was originally heard in its very first appearance with no audible alterations. It can be the original version in its entirety or only a part of the original version.
• Original Game: The game in which a theme appeared for the first time.
• Past Arrangement / Past Remix / Past Vocalization: An arrangement/remix/vocalization that debuted in a previously released piece of media.
• Remix: The original version of a theme that is modified by changing the tempo or pitch or adding new percussion/beats, but it can still be recognized as a variation of the original version and not an entirely new rendition.
• Remake: For the purposes of this proposal, a "remake" refers to a remake, port, re-release, or remaster of a game.
• Retro Service: A solely service dedicated to playing retro games, such as Virtual Console, Nintendo Switch Online, or Super Smash Bros. series masterpieces.
• Theme: A recognizable musical idea that encompasses melodic, harmonic, rhythmic, or timbral elements. Can be either a musical composition or a sound effect.
• Vocalization: A rendition of a theme that is hummed, sang, or otherwise vocalized without instruments. (Includes a cappella renditions)

This proposal that passed back in 2018 created the groundwork for the creation of articles about recurring musical themes. I think that this was a great first step in establishing coverage of a very important aspect of the Super Mario franchise. However, I feel that the standards it set need some improvements and clarifications. This proposal set the following standard for what qualifies a theme for an article: “the theme must be renditioned in at least 8 games, not counting remakes or reissues.” The term “renditioned” has been interpreted to mean that the game includes an entirely new arrangement. It doesn’t make sense to limit what counts as an appearance to entirely new arrangements, because whether or not a theme is “recurring” has nothing to do with it being an arrangement, a past arrangement, or the original version. For example, a theme that has been included in exactly 8 games, each featuring an arrangement, would qualify for an article as a recurring theme. However, a theme that has been included in 20 games, but only 6 of those feature arrangements, would not receive an article as a recurring theme. It doesn't make any sense to say the the first theme is recurring but the second one is not. Additionally, I think that we should include appearances in other pieces of media, such as The Super Mario Bros. Movie, rather than just limiting it to strictly games.

For these reasons, I propose this new standard to be used going forward: For a recurring theme to qualify for an article, it must appear in at least 8 pieces of Super Mario-related media. Appearances of the theme in retro services do not count towards the threshold requirement.

Appearances that do not count towards the article creation threshold should still be noted that within the recurring theme's article, such as appearances in retro services and non-Super Mario-related media.

Here are examples of what would and would not count towards the “8 pieces of media” threshold under this framework:

Counts towards the threshold:

• Any form of a theme in the original game.
• Any form of a theme in a remake of the original game.
• Any form of a theme in another game.
• Any form of a theme in a remake of another game.
• Any form of a theme in any other type of Super Mario-related piece of media.

Doesn't count towards the threshold:

• Any form of a theme in a retro service.
• Any form of a theme in a piece of non-Super Mario-related media.

Proposer: ToxicOJ (talk)
Deadline: November 10, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. ToxicOJ (talk) Per proposal.
2. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) I agree. Then again, there are 1-ish things that don't make sense. If remakes aren't counted for the "8 pieces of media" threshold, then shouldn't Super Mario All-Stars and/or Super Mario 64 DS not count? (NOVEMBER 6 2023 EDIT: I looked at the revised version of this proposal, and I still support.)
3. MegaBowser64 (talk) Sounds good. Sonic123's remark makes sense though, there should be a very clear-cut line for remakes.
4. Camwoodstock (talk) You could probably also change the whole "8 instances" line to say "8 unique instances" and then define what counts as a unique appearance of the song, rather than trying to mesh it all together like this (our brain kinda melted trying to read this at first... we blame a toothache ;P), but we definitely think cleanly defining what counts as a new instance of a song rather than just it appearing in another port is very handy to have, and is something sorely missing.
5. Conradd (talk) Per proposal. However, I have a question regarding Classic NES Series: Super Mario Bros. Are the original themes played on this GBA port streamed, or remade with samples recorded from an NES, or were they remade from scratch to sound as close as possible to those played on NES with the GBA soundchip (like the Game Boy with Super Mario Bros. Deluxe)? If it's the latter two, shouldn't those technically be considered rearrangements? Super Mario Bros. Deluxe was clearly aiming for an authentic NES experience but was limited by its hardware, yet we still consider what came out of it as rearrangements and not reuses). I guess I'm arguing about the degree of sound fidelity here. Should music (game program instructions) played on different revisions of a soundchip be considered a rearrangement? (For example the NES with the Ricoh 2A03 (+ revisions) for NTSC regions and the Ricoh 2A07 (+ revisions) for PAL regions)
6. Hewer (talk) Now that the consistency problem seems to have been fixed, per proposal.
7. Koopa con Carne (talk) Great proposal! Per.
8. Jazama (talk) Per all.
9. JanMisali (talk) Per all.
10. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per all.

Oppose

1. TheUndescribableGhost (talk) I'm personally fine with the whole "remakes shouldn't count" rule because of my personal belief that it's not really evidence of a theme being "recurring". I feel if it's in a non-remake, it does indeed speak more to how Nintendo and other developers treat the song. Also, if we were to give articles to themes with like, three unique arrangements (like Mega Mushroom for instance), it'll just be a stub article. Also, the "Any form of a theme in a piece of non-Super Mario-related media." sounds good on paper, but sounds rather vague to me. If we are talking about "cameo" games on the wiki (LEGO City Undercover using the Super Star theme), that's fine, but does that also reach full coverage crossovers, selective coverage crossovers, guest appearances? If I was making this proposal, I would've only counted games we cover on the wiki because we actually gave these games articles. I do understand wanting to cover some themes because yeah, I do agree that are recurring to some degree. Part of me kind of wants to see a List of recurring themes for themes that we don't give full-fledged articles but do acknowledge for those that want to see what theme has appeared more than one time, using your idea. It's the same idea that the Super Smash Bros. list pages.
2. 7feetunder (talk) Remakes shouldn't count. Game A gets remade 7 times, so we give every single piece of music in that game an article. Alternatively, music from Game A returns in Game B, then Game B gets remade 6 times, so we have to give that music an article now. Not a great deal. There really should have been a discussion first instead of jumping straight into a proposal - having to completely overhaul a proposal mid-run is generally a sign that more thought should have been put into it.

Comments

MegaBowser64 (talk) Sonic123 isn't my username, but other than that, I agree. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 13:28, November 3, 2023 (CST)

Regarding SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk)'s point, the standard regarding remakes is that the only appearance that doesn't count is when original theme is in a remake of the original game (i.e. Classic NES Series: Super Mario Bros.). This distinction only applies to remakes of the game where the theme first appeared. Appearances of the original theme or arrangements of the theme in remakes of subsequent games does count (i.e. Super Mario 64 DS or Super Mario 3D World + Bowser's Fury). The intention behind this is to ensure that a theme does not end up qualifying solely based on the game of origin being rereleased in its original form over and over again. In other words:

• Original theme in original game (Counts)
• Original theme in remake/port of original game (Doesn't count)
• Original theme in other game (Counts)
• Original theme in remake/port of other game (Counts)
• New arrangement in other game (Counts)
• New arrangement in remake/port of original game (Counts)
• New arrangement in remake/port of other game (Counts)
• Reused arrangement in other game (Counts)
• Reused arrangement in remake/port of the original game (Counts)
• Reused arrangement in remake/port of other game (Counts)
• Any type of appearance in a Virtual Console/Arcade Archives/Nintendo Switch Online game (Doesn't count) ToxicOJ (talk) 14:34, November 3, 2023 (EDT)

I get why a new arrangement makes it enough to count, but I don't understand the logic behind counting reused arrangements in ports of games other than the original. If reused arrangements in ports shouldn't count, then I think we should be consistent about that. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 14:43, November 3, 2023 (EDT)

Under this framework, reused arrangements in ports would count. The only thing that wouldn't count are inclusions of the original version of the theme in ports of the theme's first game of appearance. ToxicOJ (talk) 14:46, November 3, 2023 (EDT)

Was just about to say that but you said it for me. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 13:50, November 3, 2023 (CST)

And that's what I have a problem with. Why is that the case? What makes reused arrangements in ports of other games more valid than reused arrangements in ports of the original game? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 14:53, November 3, 2023 (EDT)

When you say "reused arrangements in ports," does that include the very first version of a theme (Super Mario Bros. original version of the "Ground Theme" in Classic NES Series: Super Mario Bros.), or just reused arrangements in ports (Super Mario All-Stars arrangement of the "Ground Theme" in Super Mario All-Stars Limited Edition)? ToxicOJ (talk) 14:58, November 3, 2023 (EDT)

ToxicOJ has a point. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 14:01, November 3, 2023 (CST)

I'm saying that neither of those cases should count. For example, Super Mario 64 DS reusing the arrangement from SM64 shouldn't count, for the same reason that ports of Super Mario Bros. that use the original theme shouldn't count. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 15:12, November 3, 2023 (EDT)

The only reason I make the distinction between ports of later games and ports of the original game is to prevent a situation where a theme could be considered "recurring" without ever either changing its arrangement or being included in a different game from the original. If a past arrangement is reused in a port of another game, then that problem has already been avoided so there's no need to exclude that appearance. To be honest I'd rather count both of these situations towards the threshold than neither of them, but I thought that this was the best compromise standard. ToxicOJ (talk) 15:19, November 3, 2023 (EDT)

WHOO! This needs to stop! SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 14:28, November 3, 2023 (CST)

I wouldn't mind counting both either, I just have a problem with the inconsistency of counting one and not the other. It feels much more simple and logical to either count or not count all reused appearances in ports. And if we want to fully solve the problem you've described then we'd need to not count both, otherwise it would still be possible for a theme with only two appearances and one arrangement to be considered recurring. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 16:00, November 3, 2023 (EDT)

Ok. Thanks! SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 13:38, November 3, 2023 (CST)

In response to your question Conradd (talk), I define an arrangement as "a new rendition of a theme that features different instrumentation, pitch, tempo, rhythm, or timbre than the original version," and I define an original version as "a theme as it was originally heard in its very first appearance with no audible alterations." Under these definitions, if a game includes a perfect, 1-to-1 match of how the theme sounded in its original game, then it is considered a reuse of the original version of the theme, and if it is not a perfect, 1-to-1 match, then it is considered an arrangement or remix, depending on the nature of the changes. The distinction comes down to audible differences. If the "Ground Theme" sounds different in any way for another game such as Classic NES Series: Super Mario Bros. or Super Mario Bros. Deluxe, then that would be considered an arrangement. Regarding differences in soundchips between regional versions of the NES and Super Mario Bros., I've not seen anything to suggest that the theme was not directly ported as an exact match of how it sounds in the original Japanese version, even though different regions technically use different soundchips, so that would be considered a use of the original version of the theme unless an audible difference between regions could be shown. ToxicOJ (talk) 01:52, November 4, 2023 (EDT)

Could the tempo difference between NTSC regions (60Hz) and PAL regions (50Hz) qualified as rearrangement? --Conradd (talk) 02:46, November 4, 2023 (EDT)

Ok so I checked just to be sure and was surprised to see that in fact the PAL version of the game is faster than the NTSC version (I was sure it was the other way around, but there is a difference, at least in the tempo) I did more research and find that if you disable the lockout chip on your NTSC NES (mod) or play on an NES Toploader with a PAL cartridge, the music plays even faster. on the contrary, if you disable the lockout chip on a PAL NES and try to play an NTSC cartridge, the music is slower. So it's like this:

• disabled lockout chip on PAL console + NTSC cartridge (slow speed) https://youtu.be/u8rNd4zK4lo
• unmodified NTSC console + NTSC cartridge (normal speed) https://youtu.be/iy3qq7zc4EY
• unmodified PAL console + PAL cartridge (fast speed) https://youtu.be/ulqS2JOGsb4
• lockout chip disabled on NTSC console + PAL cartridge or NES Toploader + PAL cartridge -> (fastest speed) https://www.youtube.com/shorts/acCBsBmWxZ8 (mod NTSC) ; https://youtu.be/nNsFBqb48RY (Toploader) --Conradd (talk) 12:52, November 4, 2023 (EDT)

After looking into this situation a little more, I think that this is a unique instance that warrants an exception and would not count as a rearrangement, only because this 50hz vs. 60hz differences affects all PAL games universally, so I think it should be treated similarly to our policy on regional differences in naming, and we would use the NTSC 60hz version, but I'm open to different solutions. ToxicOJ (talk) 12:37, November 4, 2023 (EDT)

Sorry, your response camed before mine. Is this universal across all games? Now we know that PAL SMB plays faster than its NTSC counterpart, what about SMB2, SMB3 or any other Mario related games on the system? Are all NES PAL games faster than their NTSC counterparts, no matter what? What about SNES, N64, GameCube... is there any difference in music speed in different regions for those system as well? --Conradd (talk) 13:07, November 4, 2023 (EDT)

I'm not sure. I definitely think that these differences should be mentioned in the themes' articles, but since we're dealing with regional differences between the same game rather than differences between two seperate games, I would say that this would not count towards the threshold. ToxicOJ (talk) 13:31, November 4, 2023 (EDT)

I guess I'm bringing that up because we recently accepted the SMB3 theme in WarioWare: Move It! as different, which is a faster version of the original in this case, so I guess I want to make sure, but since WarioWare: Move It! is different game, that counts, right? (did i get it? lol) What about the Hurry Up! version of the originals, that should count too, no? For example: Ground Theme (Super Mario Bros.) and Ground Theme, Hurry Up! (Super Mario Bros.) --Conradd (talk) 14:09, November 4, 2023 (EDT)

Correct, the SMB3 theme in WarioWare: Move It! and the Hurry Up! version of the "Ground Theme" in Super Mario Bros. would both be considered remixes since they are modified versions of their original themes. The difference between these examples and the "Ground Theme" in the PAL version of Super Mario Bros. is that the variation in the PAL "Ground Theme" stems solely from regional differences in the hardware itself and how that hardware plays the original theme. In this case, the whole game runs about 20% faster, including the music. I think that this is a unique circumstance that should not be considered a remix, nor should it count towards the threshold. Does that make sense? ToxicOJ (talk) 18:51, November 4, 2023 (EDT)

Sure, but now I have a question. It's not just because of the hardware that the two versions aren't the same speed, is it? If that were the case, shouldn't the PAL version sound the same on an NTSC console and vice versa? I heard that the game was reprogrammed for the PAL regions. Would that explain why we have 4 different speeds and not just 2 depending on what you're doing with your console like I showed you earlier? --Conradd (talk) 20:16, November 4, 2023 (EDT)

At the end of the day, since the entire game is sped up due to regional differences with the NES, the theme is sped up too. I don’t believe that there is enough of a distinction for it to be considered a remix with this context in mind. It is still the original ground theme just like it is still the original Super Mario Bros. The wiki does not consider any aspect of the PAL version of Super Mario Bros. as entirely distinct from its NTSC counterpart, even if the entire thing was reprogrammed. We should not make a distinction (other than a quick mention within the article) in this case either. But again, this only applies to the very specific circumstance of regional game speed differences. An increase in tempo or pitch in any other context would be considered a remix. ToxicOJ (talk) 20:42, November 4, 2023 (EDT)

I don't mean to be rude to you, Toxic, but I think you should have thought more about your proposal before making everyone vote. We now need to compare your old proposal with the rearanged one to see if we still agree with our votes, and I think it's annoying. Has anything substantial changed? If yes maybe we should reboot the counter. --Conradd (talk) 01:56, November 4, 2023 (EDT)

I'm sorry, you're 100% right, that's my bad. Most of the change is general clarification, rewording, and adding a list of definitions of terms used. The one change in substance is that I now include appearances of the original version of a theme in remakes of the original game in order to keep a consistent standard. Both of these changes were in response to multiple comments addressing these issues, so I figured it would be best to make those changes less than 24 hours after I created the proposal. I am totally fine with resetting the counter if that needs to be done. ToxicOJ (talk) 02:04, November 4, 2023 (EDT)

I think the best thing to do is to reach out to those who have already voted and tell them to go check the new proposal to see if they still agree with theirs votes so that everyone is on the same page. I think It would be lame to start over. Do you want to change something first? --Conradd (talk) 02:46, November 4, 2023 (EDT)

That’s a good idea, I’ll reach out to them. I’m pretty happy with how the proposal looks now, so I won’t change it again. ToxicOJ (talk) 02:53, November 4, 2023 (EDT)

Popping in to say we saw and uh, we're still in support ;P ~Camwoodstock (talk) 10:43, November 4, 2023 (EDT)

To address your point TheUndescribableGhost (talk), "Any form of a theme in a piece of non-Super Mario-related media" refers to pieces of media that are not covered by the Wiki (such as Lego City Undercover). The other examples you cited, full coverage crossovers (like Mario + Rabbids), selective coverage crossovers (like Super Smash Bros.), and guest appearances (like Sonic Lost World) would all count as Super Mario-related media since they are covered in some form by the Wiki. ToxicOJ (talk) 12:50, November 4, 2023 (EDT)

@TheUndescribableGhost: Short articles aren't necessarily stubs if they have all the relevant information on the subject. I don't see a problem with that. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 19:47, November 4, 2023 (EDT)

@7feetunder: What exactly is the issue with what you have described? The only games likely to have seven different remakes are old ones without very many themes in them anyway, and whose themes are likely to be recurring anyway. It's still repeated appearances of the theme at the end of the day. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 13:46, November 5, 2023 (EST)

The scenario I described is just hyperbole. Most games obviously are not going to be remade anywhere near six or seven times. I just see including remakes as a blatantly inferior option that has no reason to be lumped in with all the other changes this proposal wants to implement. The standard established by the previous proposal was to not count remakes, so why change that? Remakes are expected to include music from the original game by their very nature; it's more notable when a remake doesn't include music from the original (e.g. DKC3 GBA). It's like listing the original game in a remake's "References to other games" section. 14:41, November 5, 2023 (EST)

Remove conjectural treasure names from Wario Land stage articles

The Wario Land II and Wario Land 3 stage articles try to label every single piece of treasure with a unique name, even if they were never officially given one. Wario Land 3 at the very least makes some sense, since a good chunk of the treasures were given official names, and they are listed in a table on the main WL3 article. But for Wario Land II, every single treasure has a conjectural name, often originating from when the articles were created 14 years ago. These conjectural names serve little purpose, since usually conjectural names are given to subjects notable enough to have their own article, whereas here they are functionally identical collectibles tied to certain stages. Personally, I would just remove all the WL2 names to make it more consistent with the nameless treasures from Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3.

Proposer: DrippingYellow (talk)
Deadline: November 17, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Remove Wario Land II names only

1. DrippingYellow (talk) Per proposal.

Miscellaneous

None at the moment.