MarioWiki:Proposals: Difference between revisions

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#{{User|Time Turner}} With all the arguing I've done, this side appeals to me now. Per all.
#{{User|Time Turner}} With all the arguing I've done, this side appeals to me now. Per all.
#{{User|Niiue}} Per all.
#{{User|Niiue}} Per all.
#{{User|PowerKamek}} This has been bugging me for a long time, and I'm glad someone finally stepped up!


====Exclude ampersands====
====Exclude ampersands====

Revision as of 14:27, November 16, 2017

Image used as a banner for the Proposals page
Current time:
Sunday, May 12th, 13:01 GMT
Proposals can be new features (such as an extension), the removal of previously-added features that have tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action is taken.
  • "Vote" periods last for one week.
  • Any user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so (not, e.g., "I like this idea!").
  • All proposals must be approved by a majority of voters, including proposals with more than two options.
  • For past proposals, see the proposal archive and the talk page proposal archive.

A proposal section works like a discussion page: comments are brought up and replied to using indents (colons, such as : or ::::) and all edits are signed using the code {{User|User name}}.

How to

Rules

  1. If users have an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with the other users, who will then vote about whether or not they think the idea should be used. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and writing guidelines. Proposals must include a link to the draft page. Any pages that would be largely affected by the proposal should be marked with {{proposal notice}}.
  2. Only registered, autoconfirmed users can create, comment in, or vote on proposals and talk page proposals. Users may vote for more than one option on proposals with more than two choices.
  3. Proposals end at the end of the day (23:59) one week after voting starts, except for writing guidelines and talk page proposals, which run for two weeks (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is one week later on Monday, August 8, at 23:59 GMT.
  4. Every vote should have a strong, sensible reason accompanying it. Agreeing with a previously mentioned reason given by another user is accepted (including "per" votes), but tangential comments, heavy sarcasm, and other misleading or irrelevant quips are just as invalid as providing no reason at all.
  5. Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. Voters can remove or rewrite their own vote at any time, but the final decision to remove another user's vote lies solely with the administrators.
    • Users can also use the comments section to bring up any concerns or mistakes in regards to the proposal itself. In such cases, it's important the proposer addresses any concerns raised as soon as possible. Even if the supporting side might be winning by a wide margin, that should be no reason for such questions to be left unanswered. They may point out any missing details that might have been overlooked by the proposer, so it's a good idea as the proposer to check them frequently to achieve the most accurate outcome possible.
  6. If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(banned)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
  7. No proposal can overturn the decision of a previous proposal that is less than 4 weeks (28 days) old.
  8. Any proposal where none of the options have at least four votes will be extended for another week. If after three extensions, no options have at least four votes, the proposal will be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
  9. All proposals that end up in a tie will be extended for another week. Proposals with more than two options must also be extended another week if any single option does not have a majority support: i.e. more than half of the total number of voters must appear in a single voting option, rather than one option simply having more votes than the other options.
  10. If a proposal with only two voting options has more than ten votes, it can only pass or fail by a margin of three votes, otherwise the deadline will be extended for another week as if no majority was reached at all.
  11. Proposals can only be extended up to three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, the proposal fails and can only be re-proposed after four weeks, at the earliest.
  12. All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
  13. If the administrators deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to remove it at any time.
  14. Proposals can only be rewritten or deleted by their proposer within the first three days of their creation (six days for talk page proposals). However, proposers can request that their proposal be deleted by an administrator at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that canceled proposals must also be archived.
  15. Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting or otherwise fixing up pages. To organize efforts about improving articles on neglected or completely missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
  16. Proposals cannot be made about promotions and demotions. Users can only be promoted and demoted by the will of the administration.
  17. No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.
  18. Proposals must have a status quo option (e.g. Oppose, Do nothing) unless the status quo itself violates policy.

Basic proposal and support/oppose format

This is an example of what your proposal must look like, if you want it to be acknowledged. If you are inexperienced or unsure how to set up this format, simply copy the following and paste it into the fitting section. Then replace the [subject] - variables with information to customize your proposal, so it says what you wish. If you insert the information, be sure to replace the whole variable including the squared brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information", not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but what each voting section is supporting must be clearly defined. Such options should also be kept to a minimum, and if something comes up in the comments, the proposal can be amended as necessary.

===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|[enter your username here]}}<br>
'''Deadline''': [insert a deadline here, 7 days after the proposal was created (14 for writing guidelines and talk page proposals), at 23:59 GMT, in the format: "May 12, 2024, 23:59 GMT"]

====Support====
#{{User|[enter your username here]}} [make a statement indicating that you support your proposal]

====Oppose====

====Comments====

Users will now be able to vote on your proposal, until the set deadline is reached. Remember, you are a user as well, so you can vote on your own proposal just like the others.

To support, or oppose, just insert "#{{User|[add your username here]}}" at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's proposal. If you are voting on your own proposal, you can just say "Per my proposal".

Talk page proposals

All proposals dealing with a single article or a specific group of articles are held on the talk page of one of the articles in question. Proposals dealing with massive amounts of splits, merges or deletions across the wiki should still be held on this page.

For a list of all settled talk page proposals, see MarioWiki:Proposals/TPP archive and Category:Settled talk page proposals.

Rules

  1. All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom) using {{TPPDiscuss}}. Include a brief description of the proposal while also mentioning any pages affected by it, a link to the talk page housing the discussion, and the deadline. If the proposal involves a page that is not yet made, use {{fake link}} to communicate its title in the description. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links. Place {{TPP}} under the section's header, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with {{SettledTPP}}.
  2. All rules for talk page proposals are the same as mainspace proposals (see the "How to" section above), with the exceptions made by Rules 3 and 4 as follows:
  3. Voting in talk page proposals will be open for two weeks, not one (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, it ends two weeks later on Monday, August 15, 2011, at 23:59 GMT.
  4. The talk page proposal must pertain to the article it is posted on.
  5. When a talk page proposal passes, it should be removed from this list and included in the list under the "Unimplemented proposals" section until the proposed changes have been enacted.

List of ongoing talk page proposals

Unimplemented proposals

Proposals

Merge the Wrecking Crew and VS. Wrecking Crew phases into list articles, Axis (ended February 24, 2022)
Do not consider usage of classic recurring themes as references to the game of origin, Swallow (ended March 9, 2022)
Split Mario Kart Tour character variants into list articles, Tails777 (ended May 4, 2022)
Enforce WCAG Level AA standards to mainspace and template content, PanchamBro (ended May 29, 2022)
Change how RPG enemy infoboxes classify role, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 18, 2022)
Trim away detailed special move information for all non-Mario fighters, Koopa con Carne (ended January 30, 2023)
Classify the Just Dance series as a guest appearance, Spectrogram (ended April 27, 2023)
Establish a standard for long course listings in articles for characters/enemies/items/etc., Koopa con Carne (ended June 8, 2023)
Consider filenames as sources and create redirects, Axis (ended August 24, 2023)
Add tabbers to race/battle course articles, GuntherBB (ended November 18, 2023)
Remove elemental creatures categories from various Super Mario RPG enemies, Swallow (ended January 11, 2024)
Standardize the formatting of foreign and explanatory words and phrases in "Names in other languages" tables, Annalisa10 (ended February 7, 2024)
Merge Super Mario Bros. (film) subjects with their game counterparts, JanMisali (ended April 18, 2024)
Remove profiles and certain other content related to the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia from the wiki, Koopa con Carne (ended April 30, 2024)
Create The Cutting Room Floor link template, Bro Hammer (ended May 7, 2024)

Talk page proposals

Split all the clothing, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 12, 2021)
Split the various reissues of Mario Bros., Doc von Schmeltwick (ended April 22, 2022)
Split machine parts, Robo-Rabbit, and flag from Super Duel Mode, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 30, 2022)
Expand source priority exception to include regional English differences, LinkTheLefty (ended January 14, 2023)
Add product IDs in game infoboxes, Windy (ended March 18, 2023)
Remove the list of Super Smash Bros. series objects, Axis (ended May 10, 2023)
Merge Start Dash with Rocket Start, Koopa con Carne (ended August 17, 2023)
Use italics for the full title of the Mario Kart 8 Deluxe – Booster Course Pass, Hewer (ended September 15, 2023)
Split Special Shot into separate articles by game, Technetium (ended September 30, 2023)
Convert the lists of episode appearances for television series characters into categories, Camwoodstock (ended November 22, 2023)
Decide which series certain Yoshi games are related to, GuntherBB (ended December 14, 2023)
Change the Super Mario 64 DS level section to include more specific character requirements, Altendo (ended December 20, 2023)
Replace "List of Game Over screens" and "'Game Over' as death" sections with a "History" section, DrippingYellow (ended December 20, 2023)
Split the Jungle Buddies from Animal Friends, DrippingYellow (ended December 22, 2023)
Make major changes to the MarioWiki:Links page, PnnyCrygr (ended January 10, 2024)
Make bestiary list pages for the Minion Quest and Bowser Jr.'s Journey modes, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 11, 2024)
Merge the ghost Bats and Mice from Luigi's Mansion to their respective organic counterparts from the later games, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 20, 2024)
Split Strobomb from Robomb, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 20, 2024)
Split the NES and SNES releases of Wario's Woods, SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (ended March 27, 2024)
Merge Mii Brawler, Mii Swordfighter, and Mii Gunner to Mii, TheUndescribableGhost (ended March 28, 2024)
Merge Masterpieces to the Super Smash Bros. Brawl and Super Smash Bros. for Wii U articles, Camwoodstock (ended March 31, 2024)
Split Mario's Time Machine (Nintendo Entertainment System), or the Super Nintendo Entertainment version along with both console versions of Mario is Missing!, LinkTheLefty (ended April 11, 2024)
Rename Beanstalk to Vine, DrippingYellow (ended April 11, 2024)
Remove non-Super Mario content from Super Smash Bros. series challenges articles, BMfan08 (ended May 3, 2024)
Merge Stompybot 3000 with Colonel Pluck, DrippingYellow (ended May 4, 2024)
Merge Party Ball (item) with Party Ball, GuntherBayBee (ended May 5, 2024)

List of talk page proposals

Writing guidelines

None at the moment.

New features

None at the moment.

Removals

Delete the categories for the levels that an Animal Friend appears in

The title's a bit unwieldy, but it's a good way of describing the categories I'm talking about, like Category:Levels with Parry and Category:Levels with Winky. Why do we have these categories? It's not like we have categories for every level featuring Orange Yoshi or Goombas or 1-Up Mushrooms or anything else apart from Animal Friends. It's not even all of them: the animals from Donkey Kong Jungle Beat are completely absent from the category deal. If you want to know every level that a certain Animal Friend appears in, their pages already list them. Although the lists are a bit unwieldy, especially when multiple of them are on the same page, the solution is not to make categories. Who would actually benefit from these categories in the first place? Who requires a compact list of every level that an Animal Friend appears in, especially when some of them have less than five entries? As I said with the proposal to delete Category:New Levels, we shouldn't need to cater to every single remote possibility.

Proposer: Time Turner (talk)
Deadline: November 17, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Time Turner (talk) Per proposal.
  2. Mario jc (talk) Per proposal; just having the Animal Buddy pages list the levels is good enough.
  3. Alex95 (talk) - Per proposal.
  4. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per proposal.
  5. 7feetunder (talk) Per proposal.
  6. L151 (talk) Per proposal.
  7. Jazama (talk) Per all
  8. Rosalina1999 (talk) Per all
  9. Yoshi the SSM (talk) Per all.

Oppose

Comments

Affected categories:

Changes

Make "Bestiary" its own namespace

Sure, we have a namespace for galleries, but I don't see why we can't do the same for bestiaries. It's the same kind of "special" article that I would define galleries as as well. Therefore, I propose that we rename every instance of [XX] bestiary to Bestiary:[XX].

Proposer: Toadette the Achiever (talk)
Deadline: October 26, 2017, 23:59 GMT Extended to November 2, 2017, 23:59 GMT Extended to November 9, 2017, 23:59 GMT Extended to November 16, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Toadette the Achiever (talk) Per proposal.
  2. Waluigi Time (talk) Per proposal.
  3. Niiue (talk) Per proposal.
  4. YoshiFlutterJump (talk) Per proposal. Why not?
  5. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) This is (similar to?) one of the things Zeldawiki does that I think we should too.
  6. Yoshi the SSM (talk) Per all.
  7. Ultimate Mr. L (talk) Per all.
  8. Eldritchdraaks (talk) Switch sides again, Per Toadette's comment.
  9. Camwood777 (talk) - Just because we've got fewer bestiaries than galleries doesn't really give much an excuse. This helps keep the wiki more organized than it would be, and that's more than a good enough reason IMO.

Oppose

  1. Tucayo (talk) - For galleries it made sense because most major articles had one (there are currently 319); for bestiaries, I don't see the point at all. There are 12 proper bestiaries, I don't think this warrants a namespace by any means.
  2. Time Turner (talk) Per Tucayo. I also don't see the benefit of this; it seems like more hassle then it's worth for little payoff when considering the few bestiaries on the page.
  3. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per Tucayo.
  4. Alex95 (talk) - Originally supported, but considering the number of bestiaries there are, per Tucayo.
  5. Lcrossmk8 (talk) I don't think we have enough pages of this thing to make it into a separate namespace. Per all.
  6. NSY (talk) Per my comment below and Tucayo.
  7. Ghost Jam (talk) Per all. I see what's trying to be done here, but it seems overly fiddly considering what is being effected, making this extra work for little reward.
  8. Shokora (talk) Per all.
  9. Mario Kart DS Fan (talk)Really?! Per all.
  10. MrConcreteDonkey (talk) - Per all. At least for now I don't see why this is needed.
  11. Baby Luigi (talk) Per all.
  12. Yoshi876 (talk) Per all.
  13. PowerKamek (talk) Per all.

Comments

I might just be a bit dumb, but I don't fully understand what this means or what the difference is. Could you give an example?--EldritchdraaksSig1.pngEldritchdraaksSig2.png 12:15, 20 October 2017 (EDT)
For example, Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga bestiary would become Bestiary:Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga if this were to pass. --A sprite of a Flame Chomp from New Super Mario Bros. Wii.TheFlameChomp (talk) 12:18, 20 October 2017 (EDT)
I can only see one problem with this. On every enemy page where the enemy template is placed, transcluding its info from the bestiary page, they look like this:
{{:Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga bestiary|transcludesection=Bowser|align=horizontal|image=[[File:BowserRoarSmallAni.gif]]}}
The bolded part is where we're going to get into some issues. It'll be a simple fix, but we'd have to change the link for EVERY page with an enemy template.--EldritchdraaksSig1.pngEldritchdraaksSig2.png 12:54, 20 October 2017 (EDT)
Sounds like bot work. Alex95sig1.pngAlex95sig2.png 12:56, 20 October 2017 (EDT)
Could we keep the current names as redirects until all of the transclusions are fixed?
Ultimate Mr. L without the emblem behind him (for my signature) Ultimate Mr. L (Talk-Contribs-Stats) 14:05, 20 October 2017 (EDT)
@Ultimate Mr. L: Isn't that a standard measure? @Alex95: That was my exact plan for fixing those pages. Toadette icon CTTT.pngFont of Archivist Toadette's signature(T|C) 17:37, 20 October 2017 (EDT)

@Tucayo: "There's too little" is not an argument in and of itself. It's so that normal readers don't get confused into thinking it's an actual article. Toadette icon CTTT.pngFont of Archivist Toadette's signature(T|C) 18:00, 23 October 2017 (EDT)

They are articles, though?? What makes them any different from quote pages, lists of badges, recipes, assist trophies, etc.? Bold + italics doesn't make it true. --TucayoSig.png™ The 'Shroom 22:01, 23 October 2017 (EDT)
Those are actual list articles. Bestiaries are not technically list articles; they are rather pages that are there to have individual sections be transcluded onto actual articles. Toadette icon CTTT.pngFont of Archivist Toadette's signature(T|C) 22:07, 23 October 2017 (EDT)
But they are still articles by themselves. I truly fail to see the point here. --TucayoSig.png™ The 'Shroom 22:09, 23 October 2017 (EDT)
Again, why do you think that they're actual articles? They are not meant to be. Toadette icon CTTT.pngFont of Archivist Toadette's signature(T|C) 08:25, 24 October 2017 (EDT)

If we gonna have them as separate namespaces I honestly think the category should expand to all list articles since they are the very similar to bestiaries. I honestly think having a separate namespace for just 12 pages for something very specific is inconsistent and unprofessional. NSY (talk)

@NSY: Again, bestiaries ARE NOT technically list articles; they are relevant sections of a page transcluded onto other articles, and having too few does not make too much of a difference. Also, could you please elaborate on the "inconsistency" argument? I understand it less so than Tucayo's arguments. Toadette icon CTTT.pngFont of Archivist Toadette's signature(T|C) 15:10, 24 October 2017 (EDT)
Well according to dictionary.com a list is defined as "a series of names or other items written or printed together in a meaningful grouping or sequence so as to constitute a record". Pretty certain an article that has a record of every enemy and their stats falls under that. It's inconsistent because these would the only list articles that got their own namespace, what about the articles listing all the mini games in a Mario Party game, would they also get their own namespace. NSY (talk)
No, because that's an actual list:
  • Balloon Burst
  • Bombs Away
  • Crazy Cutter
Where as the bestiaries are tables:
Name Location HP Items
Bowser Castle 100 Key
Goomba Plains 3 Mushroom
Koopa Troopa Mountains 12 N/A
We don't list out the enemies on a bestiary like we do for every single list on this site. The lists are spilt up into categories, like the Species list, and they only have a name that links to it's main article, ONLY. Nothing else about that link exists on the page.--EldritchdraaksSig1.pngEldritchdraaksSig2.png 17:32, 26 October 2017 (EDT)
However, there are some "list" articles such as List of enemy formations in Paper Mario that are tables, so the lists are not always simply just a name that links to its main article. I agree that bestiaries are like list articles. --A sprite of a Flame Chomp from New Super Mario Bros. Wii.TheFlameChomp (talk) 17:36, 26 October 2017 (EDT)
Didn't know that existed. Is that article necessary? If so, seems like that should be integrated into the Paper Mario bestiary.--EldritchdraaksSig1.pngEldritchdraaksSig2.png 17:40, 26 October 2017 (EDT)
I feel that there is enough information for it to remain separate (a proposal to merge it could be created though). Even if that and the Thousand-Year Door version were merged with their bestiaries, there are still other list articles that are more than just simply names (see Category:Lists for more examples). --A sprite of a Flame Chomp from New Super Mario Bros. Wii.TheFlameChomp (talk) 17:55, 26 October 2017 (EDT)
There is also List of Sammer Guys. The only reason why it is kept separate from Super Paper Mario bestiary is that it is a list of Sammer Guys fought in an optional thing (though the first 20 are required) and they are too similar to each other. As for another this bestiaries are, they are compendiums which is "a collection of concise but detailed information about a particular subject, especially in a book or other publication(not really relevant to these bestiaries, but I am quoting this word for word)" -- definition found by searching compendiums on Bing. The list of enemy formations and others listed here may be the only exceptions, though.

Okay, this just doesn't make any sense at all. How and why in the world would we make this thing its own namespace if there are only twelve of it on the market right now? I don't get it. Lcrossmk8 (talk) 17:49, 27 October 2017 (EDT)

Because it's not really an article. Its main purpose is infoboxes to transclude onto articles. Because it is more than just an article, I feel it warrants its own namespace. It doesn't matter how few of them there are.
Ultimate Mr. L without the emblem behind him (for my signature) Ultimate Mr. L (Talk-Contribs-Stats) 19:48, 28 October 2017 (EDT)
But why does it need a separate namespace to exemplify that fact? Hello, I'm Time Turner. 20:00, 28 October 2017 (EDT)
Are you suggesting that the Template namspace might be the ideal home for them? (Yeah, it just now occurred to me.) Toadette icon CTTT.pngFont of Archivist Toadette's signature(T|C) 13:25, 29 October 2017 (EDT)
...No? Hello, I'm Time Turner. 00:11, 30 October 2017 (EDT)

Improve rewrite-expand template

I propose that the {{rewrite-expand}} needs improved. 

<div class="notice-template" style="text-align:justify;background:#9CF;margin:.5em 2%;padding:0 1em;border:1px solid black;color:black">
It has been requested that this {{#if: {{{section|}}}|section|article}} be '''rewritten''' and '''expanded'''{{#if:{{{reason|}}}|. '''Reason:''' {{{reason}}}| to include more information}}{{#if:{{{1|}}}| (tagged on {{{1}}}).|.}}
</div>

Proposer: Woodchuck (talk)
Deadline: November 18, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Woodchuck (talk) Per proposal.

Oppose

  1. Lcrossmk8 (talk) Once again, per last time and then some. I don't get it, what is so wrong with the rewrite-expand template anyway? It does the job just fine.
  2. Alex95 (talk) - Other than moving the word "to", there's no difference being made here.
  3. Time Turner (talk) Why?
  4. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per all.
  5. Ultimate Mr. L (talk) You can already add specifics if any are needed. This change is nothing but busywork. Per all.
  6. Wildgoosespeeder (talk) The proposal is still failing to reconsider other templates, from last time. Stop pushing this proposal until you "do your homework", for a lack of a better phrase.
  7. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) There's no point, we might as well be moving it to "not dun yet lol."
  8. BBQ Turtle (talk) Can't see the difference or any worthwhile or significant impact it may have, per all.
  9. 7feetunder (talk) Why do you keep trying to fix something that isn't broken?
  10. Jazama (talk) Per all

Comments

Ampersands in Navigation Templates

It's that time again, where we look at inconsistencies in the names of navigation templates! This time, we'll be looking at templates that use (or don't use) ampersands. It's not a given that if the game's title includes one, its corresponding template with also include one. None of the Mario & Luigi include it (Template:MLSS, Template:MLPIT, etc.), but scattered other examples include it (Template:M&SATLOG, Template:M&W, etc.). Three of the templates forMario & Sonic meanwhile substitute it for an A, as in "and", because that's not confusing in the slightest (Template:MASATOG, Template:MASATOWG, etc.). As with last time, I'll stress that having consistency is hugely important, because otherwise editors need to either remember the patterns for all of them, constantly look up the names to be sure they didn't screw up, or just make blind guesses and hope for the best. This is especially problematic when making new templates, and the editors have no idea what they should be doing (Yoshi Touch & Go, for example, still doesn't have a navigation template). Unlike last time, I don't strongly favour one side over the other: ampersands are similar to colons to some extent, and they're very much not necessary to quickly know what the template is about, but the word "and" is still a notable part of the title, and I doubt that anyone would complain if "and" was written in plain text and then included in the name (as with Template:MADKMOTM). At the very least, I'm going to say that using the letter "A" instead of "&" is bad, but otherwise, the choice is up to you.

Proposer: Time Turner (talk)
Deadline: November 19, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Include ampersands

  1. Alex95 (talk) - Same with how I voted in your proposal about colons in nav templates (which ultimately didn't rule in my favor, but whatever), I think if the name of the title has the ampersand, then the abbreviation should include it.
  2. Mario jc (talk) Per Alex. I'm sure a lot of users would refer to names like "Mario & Luigi" as "M&L", not "MAL".
  3. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per proposal.
  4. Yoshi the SSM (talk) Per all.
  5. BBQ Turtle (talk) Very confusing otherwise, per all.
  6. Time Turner (talk) With all the arguing I've done, this side appeals to me now. Per all.
  7. Niiue (talk) Per all.
  8. PowerKamek (talk) This has been bugging me for a long time, and I'm glad someone finally stepped up!

Exclude ampersands

Do nothing

  1. Lcrossmk8 (talk) I think that our current system is fine. We use "and" when the name actually consists of "and", such as Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games, and we use the ampersand when the name has it. The only reason we exclude it from the Mario & Luigi games is because it's easier to distinguish them that way. Other than that, I think that we don't need to change how we write our templates. Call me conservative if you want, but it's been that way for a long time, long enough for me to get used to.
  2. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) The Mario and Luigi games already have very long titles as it is, while Mario and Wario would be two letters if abbreviated without the &. I think the case-by case we have now is fine. As for Mario and Sonic, it's a bit less clear due to them being less, how you say, popular.
  3. Eldritchdraaks (talk) per Doc von Schmeltwick, case-by-case.

Comments

Uh, bro, did you forget to support your proposal and put a deadline on it? I hope not, this is just a reminder. Lcrossmk8 (talk) 21:51, 12 November 2017 (EST)

@Lcross: the series is titled Mario & Sonic, and all of its games follow suit. I make note of that in the proposal. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 22:10, 12 November 2017 (EST)

Uh...okay, then. I still don't know if I want to change the Mario & Luigi templates yet, though. Lcrossmk8 (talk) 22:13, 12 November 2017 (EST)
What's the difference between Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga and Mini Mario & Friends: amiibo Challenge? Hello, I'm Time Turner. 22:15, 12 November 2017 (EST)
I don't look like the guy who would know. In other words, I don't know. Other than the games themselves and what they are and what they specialize in and so on and so forth, I don't know. Lcrossmk8 (talk) 22:20, 12 November 2017 (EST)
Votes should only be made when you're confident in your decision. It's fine to change it as time passes, but if you're unsure, perhaps it would be best to abstain for the moment. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 22:22, 12 November 2017 (EST)
Yeah, I guess you're right, but I vote and do things mostly because I want to throw in my two cents and speak my mind on most of the issues that come abound on this wiki. However, I will keep that in mind. Lcrossmk8 (talk) 22:25, 12 November 2017 (EST)

@Doc: What does popularity have to do with names? We're fine with abbreviating every single other name, barring an overlap. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 22:57, 12 November 2017 (EST)

Because people are more likely to realize what they are with the & than without if it's not popular, but it's just clutter for the more popular ones. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:00, 12 November 2017 (EST)
That's arbitrary and subjective, as if everyone is familiar with every single Mario & Luigi game to the point that they're somehow elevated above other games. What if they're not familiar with the games at all? Also, how does an ampersand help other games be recognized but just act as clutter for other games when all we have to work with is a few letters? Hello, I'm Time Turner. 23:04, 12 November 2017 (EST)
We're talking about in general. After all, all of the games and series in the Mario franchise get equally proportional coverage to how iconic and famous they are, and judging from that, I think they would get the hint pretty fast. Lcrossmk8 (talk) 23:13, 12 November 2017 (EST)
That's not true in the slightest. Every character, item, and location from every single game receives an article regardless of where it comes from. That's not proportional coverage, that's equal coverage. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 23:19, 12 November 2017 (EST)
How is that not proportional coverage? What I'm talking about is, every game and series in the Mario franchise gets proportional prominence, and depending on how iconic and famous it is, it just...shines a brighter light, and its content is more accessed and known. That's what I meant. Lcrossmk8 (talk) 23:26, 12 November 2017 (EST)
I don't think you know what the word "proportional" means. Dark BonesSig.png 23:27, 12 November 2017 (EST)
Yeah, that's literally not what the word "proportional" means, and the fact that some games "shine a brighter light" is seriously subjective. Why does that even matter for navigation templates? Hello, I'm Time Turner. 23:30, 12 November 2017 (EST)
It matters because we're talking about how the popularity of these games affects how their navigation templates should be handled. I'm saying that because the games and series get the coverage and attention equal to how popular and iconic they are in the Mario franchise, their navigation templates should be handled appropriately as such, with the popular ones being left alone and the obscure ones being given more attention. The ampersand does just that. Lcrossmk8 (talk) 23:40, 12 November 2017 (EST)
"the games and series get the coverage and attention equal to how popular and iconic they are" You were literally just told that this is completely false. And it is. Dark BonesSig.png 23:45, 12 November 2017 (EST)
Is it? I'm not completely convinced. The Super Mario franchise is the series that just fills the bucket of this wiki. Without it, the entire Mario franchise would have never existed, and not this wiki either. Most of the articles are the Super Mario series articles, and for good reason. And then you have the RPGs and the sports games. They too get a whole ton of coverage and articles on the wiki, but they're only second-best to the all-iconic Super Mario series when it comes to how much of it we have. After that, we've got some of the lesser-known games, such as Mario vs Donkey Kong and some other games that don't get as much attention, and it goes from there. I think there is some sort of social status or some hierarchy on the Mario Wiki that dictates what gets coverage and how much coverage it gets, all based on how popular, iconic, or famous it is, or if it belongs to one of the subseries that has these qualities, all behind the shadows. Call me intricate, call me a conspiracy theorist, call me just a kid who looks into things way too much, but I'm seriously thinking that the coverage of everything Mario franchise-related on this wiki is divided up this way, even if everything gets an article. Lcrossmk8 (talk) 23:56, 12 November 2017 (EST)
While it is true that articles pertaining to popular games will inevitably see more activity than more obscure stuff simply because more people are playing them and writing about them, that has jack diddly squat to do with our coverage policy. Otherwise every single rock and blade of grass in Super Mario 64 would have a page and our entire coverage of Mario's Time Machine would consist of a two-sentence article. If that. Also, how is any of that relevant to whether or not navigation templates should use ampersands? Dark BonesSig.png 00:07, 13 November 2017 (EST)
Because this is about how the popularity and attention that each of the series gets affects what we do with their navigation templates, and in an indirect way, the coverage they get. It's what Doc kind of alluded to when he said that nothing should be done with the templates like Mario & Luigi while we should give templates like Mario & Wario a little more time in the ghostlight. This is my point all along. Lcrossmk8 (talk) 00:12, 13 November 2017 (EST)
Navigation templates don't get treated differently based on the notability or popularity of their subjects. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 00:30, 13 November 2017 (EST)
Well, just exactly like Doc said, people are more likely to realize what the games are with the ampersand than without it if they're not popular, but for the popular ones, it's just clutter for them. And by the way, let's not put too many indentations in our comments. Make sure to reset the bar at some point, if you know what I mean. Lcrossmk8 (talk) 00:34, 13 November 2017 (EST)
I've already brought this up: how do you know what's popular? You might think that it's blindingly obvious, but it's extremely possible for someone to encounter the templates with little to no knowledge of the series. And even if you want to be adamant about the series being super popular, why do you want to get rid of something that could only add clarity? The M&L templates are only four to five letters long in the first place; what clutter are you even trying to avoid, especially when that same clutter is perfectly acceptable in other templates? Hello, I'm Time Turner. 00:44, 13 November 2017 (EST)

Somewhat off topic, but I think why {{G&Wario}} is labeled as such is so it doesn't get confused with {{Game & Watch}}. I'd be for renaming it to "Template:Game & Wario", though, like how we have {{Super Mario Sunshine}} and {{Super Mario Strikers}}. Alex95sig1.pngAlex95sig2.png 11:11, 13 November 2017 (EST)

In my proposal to standardize template names in general, I actually bring up this up, and I suggested formatting the names like "G&Wario" (i.e. Template:YStory and Template:YSafari). This was later shot down, but it may be worth revisiting the idea. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 12:21, 13 November 2017 (EST)


Also @Doc: you do realize that there are plenty of navigation templates with long names (like any of the level-exclusive ones) and there plenty of navigation templates with only three or two characters, right? It's not even like we're writing them in full; at most, one character will be added to them or remove from them. Is that a catastrophically large change? Hello, I'm Time Turner. 14:08, 13 November 2017 (EST)

Miscellaneous

Super Hornio Bros Page

This is a bit of a controversial one, but here it goes. I think we should incorporate a full page on both Super Hornio films for preservation purposes instead of a mere description. I would like to do this, as the film is owned by Nintendo themselves, and the history behind them are extremely interesting. I've written a draft here: User:Howzit/Sandbox. We have so many other Mario knockoffs properly documented, why not this one?

Proposer: Howzit (talk)
Deadline: November 19, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Howzit (talk) Per proposal

Oppose

  1. Lcrossmk8 (talk) Okay, since this has absolutely no relation to the Mario franchise whatsoever, I don't think this is a good idea at all.
  2. Wildgoosespeeder (talk) This is a place that kids visit. We have nothing in place to stop people underage from accessing adult only content, even if it is appropriately censored. Swearing is one thing (Bob Hoskins for example), but pornography is just a big no-no for a kid-friendly franchise and an unofficial wiki that is also kid-friendly.
  3. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) The reason this is owned by Nintendo is that they bought it out to prevent more entries coming out, as they apparently hadn't discovered that wonderful "sue" button they've used to take down far more quality-controlled fan games ever since.
  4. Magikrazy (talk) Not gonna lie, I would love if we had an article on that. It would be pretty funny and interesting. But it's not an official Mario product, despite Nintendo themselves owning the distribution rights. As such, I don't feel it deserves its own article. Rather, just a section in the bootlegs and knockoffs page we already have.
  5. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per all.
  6. Glowsquid (talk) - I'm going to oppose on the ground that from my understanding, Nintendo only bought the distribution rights and not the actual Super Hornio property (of course in practice, this is not that relevant of a distinction because only Nintendo has controls over wheter that is released). Because of that technicality, I think the way it's currently covered on the knockoffs page is the best (btw "Think of the children!" is a totally invalid reason)
  7. BBQ Turtle (talk) I think the brief description's enough, it is just a rip off and isn't part of the Mario series, so it definitely doesn't deserve an article of its own.
  8. Jazama (talk) Per all
  9. Toadette the Achiever (talk) A) It's a bootleg. B) It is quite easily covered in List of Mario knockoffs acknowledged by Nintendo, so per all.
  10. Niiue (talk) Per all.

Comments

@Wildgoosespeed: We already cover it on the wiki. Also, the subject matter is irrelevant, as we're a wiki first and foremost (as the point was made on Bob Hoskin's page; we're not about to censor anything). Besides, have you read the draft? It's purely professional. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 01:12, 12 November 2017 (EST)

The more you know, am I right? Still, I consider such coverage questionable. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) (Stats - Contribs) 01:14, 12 November 2017 (EST)
Official content is official content, no matter what form it takes. What should be debated here is whether or not it should be covered in full. For the moment, I'm leaning towards giving it a separate page, simply because it was bought by Nintendo and is therefore an official product. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 01:20, 12 November 2017 (EST)
Legal definitions are messy. I mean, the Mario IP was licensed to those who made the Category:Edutainment Games for DOS, PC, NES, and SNES, but that doesn't mean that the games are owned by Nintendo are official. Maybe I am wrong about that. The point is the original author isn't Nintendo and yet giving credit to them as if they were because they bought the film rights isn't quite right to then label it as "official". Legalities isn't the only measure of being official. I think that Nintendo has long since forgotten those licensed instances of the Mario franchise. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) (Stats - Contribs) 01:34, 12 November 2017 (EST)
Yeah TT the only way it's official is that Nintendo literally owns it and tell me what does that really mean? Chester Alan Arthur (talk)

@TimeTurner: Oh. My bad. I had no idea. I should probably think twice before I start shooting my mouth off for no reason. Lcrossmk8 (talk) 18:35, 12 November 2017 (EST)

Seems nobody actually read my post. If anyone paid attention, yes, I am WELL aware that it is a knockoff which was then bought by Nintendo to stop production. I had even put that in my draft I wrote before hand. I simply wanted to just create a full page for more coverage on the topic, but apparently so many people are "offended" by having a full page on it. ~~ (Howzit) 15.11.2017
That's very presumptuous of you. Note the various other reasons stated in the opposition. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 04:04, 16 November 2017 (EST)
Thanks, I can read. ~~ (Howzit) 15.11.2017

Bring back game-similarity charts

Okay, so anyone reading this probably doesn't know what I'm talking about. Let me give you an example. This was my first edit on the wiki. I fixed the chart under "gameplay menus". But now this chart and the other one are both gone. The editor that removed the charts gave a one-word summary: "Unnecessary". It has happened with Mario Golf (series), Mario Tennis (series), Mario Party (series), and several others. Why? "Unnecessary" is an unacceptable reason to remove such charts. As an encyclopedia and a wiki, we should never remove info because we classify it "unnecessary". An encyclopedia includes all obtainable information, necessary or unnecessary. Therefore we should stop the removal of these charts and bring them back.
Proposer: YoshiFlutterJump (talk)
Deadline: November 20, 2017, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. YoshiFlutterJump (talk) Per proposal.

Oppose

  1. Ultimate Mr. L (talk) Those charts don't give any information, they only show similarities between games. I don't see how they help to convey information and agree that they are (apologies in advance) unnecessary. If you can tell me how they are useful, I'll consider changing my vote.
  2. Baby Luigi (talk) These charts are incredibly unwieldy and they make a shoddy attempt at comparing two different types of gameplay. It's uninformative, a messy way to organize comparisons, and simply writing similarities and comparisons in prose format is far more useful to the leader than creating a confusing table that lists elements that do not have anything in common with each other at all. Our gameplay sections in the way the articles are written are fine and are better than what they used to be.
  3. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per Baby Luigi.

Comments

Your edit link is fouled up. To get it to display the word This, remove the | and replace it with a space. Right now, the link not only looks wrong, it doesn't work right.
Ultimate Mr. L without the emblem behind him (for my signature) Ultimate Mr. L (Talk-Contribs-Stats) 15:55, 13 November 2017 (EST)
P.S. I noticed that your were trying to fix the ====Comments==== issue. That's a glitch that shows up all the time. To fix it, just throw some sort of code under the header. A colon works nicely, since it then doesn't actually show up on the page, but the header works right.

I kind of get why someone would want a quick 'n' easy way to check which Mario Tennis games (for an off-the-cuff example) allow mirro matches, but man, not like this. Ugly, IMAX-wide charts that only get uglier and bigger the more games are released. --Glowsquid (talk) 21:05, 13 November 2017 (EST)

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