MarioWiki:Proposals: Difference between revisions

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===List of talk page proposals===
==Writing guidelines==
*Split {{fakelink|Bramble Scramble (Donkey Kong Land 2)}} from [[Bramble Scramble (Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest)]]. ([[Talk:Bramble Scramble (Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest)#Split Bramble Scramble (Donkey Kong Land 2) from Bramble Scramble (Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest)|Discuss]]) '''Passed'''
===Consider "humorous" and other related terms as frequently misused in [[MarioWiki:Good writing]]===
*Merge [[Pokey (Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Minis March Again!)]] with [[Pokey]], or change the title. ([[Talk:Pokey (Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Minis March Again!)#Merge with Pokey or Change the Name|Discuss]]) '''Deadline:''' August 25, 2016, 23:59 GMT


==Writing guidelines==
A writing quirk that seems to pop up everywhere (particularly in the Mario RPG pages/sections) that always drives me ''nuts'' is referring to a situation or action as "comical" or "humorous". Generally, these words are used to describe something that is percieved to be amusing, which is obviously subjective and should not be present in encyclopediac writing. However, usage of these words on here seems to follow an improper, "objective" pattern of referring to features intended by the developers as gags or jokes. Examples of blatant misuse:
''None at the moment.''
 
From the [[Minion Quest: The Search for Bowser]] article:
<blockquote>The group runs into [[Prince Peasley]], and after a battle ensues with a few [[Piranha Bean]]s, Captain Goomba ''humorously'' sends out one of them to attack Prince Peasley.</blockquote>
Who says Captain Goomba is trying to make a joke out of sending monsters out to fight an ego-centric prince? In Captain Goomba's eyes, he's practically fighting for his life trying not to be eaten. The only one who could find this humorous is the viewer, and since this is a story synopsis in an encyclopedia, there shouldn't be any viewer.
 
From [[Goomba Mask]]:
<blockquote>In ''[[Paper Mario: The Origami King]]'', a different Goomba Mask resembling a [[Paper Macho Goomba]] appears in the [[Shogun Studios]] storage area. If Mario wears it, he spins around and causes the mask's eyes to roll, with the humorous appearance making [[Olivia]] laugh.</blockquote>
Even though there is actually an in-game audience this time, the wording still implies that the ''writer'' thinks it is humorous. In order to emphasize that it's Olivia who thinks it is funny, I changed the last sentence to:
<blockquote>If Mario wears it, he spins around and causes the mask's eyes to roll, which Olivia finds amusing to the point of laughter.</blockquote>
 
The article for [[Kruller]] has quite possibly the most egregious usage of "humorously" I've ever seen:
<blockquote>When Luigi enters the office afterward, Kruller briefly faints from shock at Luigi entering, before entering the next room to find a suitable weapon to defend himself (''humorously'' getting stuck on his back mid-roll) [...] Gooigi then retrieves the Mezzanine's elevator button, with it being ''humorously'' revealed that Luigi slept through the entire battle [...] After defeating Kruller in two-player mode, Luigi, who was watching the battle from outside, takes all the credit saying that he did it, after which Gooigi ''humorously'' copies Luigi as he had actually defeated Kruller [...] </blockquote>
 
''All'' of these are jokes meant for the audience. And once again, because this is a synopsis in an encyclopedia, there shouldn't ''be'' an audience.


==New features==
And there's way more that I haven't mentioned (just look up the word "humorous" on here and you'll see what I mean). To summarize how I feel this term has been frequently misused, in a form easily copyable for the rules:
===Create "Mini" article===
I think there should be a [[Mini]]s article. This article will be about the [[Mario Toy Company]] line of toys that describe [[Mini Mario (toy)|Mini Mario]], [[Mini Toad]], [[Mini Peach]], [[Mini Donkey Kong]], [[Mini Pauline]], and any other Minis I may be missing. A few titles in [[Mario vs. Donkey Kong (series)|the series]] refers to them as Minis.


The only concerns I have are how to format it so it doesn't violate policy about stubs. Should it be considered [[:Category:Species|a species]]? Should it follow a similar structure to [[Koopa (species)]]?
;'''Humorous/Comical/etc.''': "Humorous", along with other similar words, is used from an observational perspective to describe something one finds amusing or funny, which is, of course, subjective on the part of the writer and should be avoided in an encyclopedia. However, it is commonly misused to refer to anything that is specifically written to be a joke or a gag by the authors of a piece of media. These kinds of words should generally be used only when a character or person relevant to the article ''finds'' something amusing. Not to be confused with "comedic", a word that simply means something relates to comedy in general, and is fine to use if a joke is deliberate on the part of a character (or, in case of references to the media's development, a developer).


'''Proposer''': {{User|Wildgoosespeeder}}<br>
'''Proposer''': {{User|DrippingYellow}}<br>
'''Deadline''': August 20, 2016, 23:59 GMT
'''Deadline''': May 26, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Create the article====
====Support====
#{{User|Wildgoosespeeder}} Let's go
#{{User|DrippingYellow}} This whole situation is, dare I say it... "humorous". Per proposal.
#{{User|3D Player 2010}} Per all.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal. Flowery writing is no laughing matter!
#{{User|AfternoonLight}} I agree! I created [[Pacific Rim Productions, Inc.]] in the past
#{{User|Hewer}} I'd add that "comedic" should be used instead to get across that something is meant to be funny while using more objective language, but otherwise, sure, I'll humour this idea.
#{{User|Yoshi the Space Station Manager}} Yes, make it a species article. This article will be easier to find (by searching) than the categories page. I have some concerns tough. With my [[Talk:Pokey (Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Minis March Again!)|proposal]] out there, I say we should hold on until it is finish (at least the merge part) to expand this proposal to include Toys and Dolls. It is not about doing more than one proposal at a time, it is about these two proposals might go against each other. Even if there was one, I wouldn't vote until mine was done (like I said, at least the merge part).
#{{User|Ray Trace}} We should just get rid of that subjective adjective altogether, let readers decide from the context of the quote if it's humorous or not, we don't need to write an editorial about it (ie sentences such as "Patrick gets caught by Sandy's lasso and dragged back, resulting in a nuclear explosion" already conveys to the reader that it's comedic)
#{{User|Mr Squid}} Create it!
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
#{{User|Jazama}} Per all


====Don't create the article====  
====Oppose====


====Comments====
====Comments====
This isn't something that really needs a proposal. A forum topic or asking on the talk page for the most active mini's page would probably have sufficed. -- {{User:Ghost Jam/sig}} 02:11, 18 August 2016 (EDT)
"Comical" and "comedic" should be fine, as those simply mean relating to comedy. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:31, May 12, 2024 (EDT)
:"Comedic" is definitely fine, but in multiple dictionary sources I've come across, the definition of "comical" meaning "relating to comedy" is either listed as obsolete and deprecated, or absent altogether. [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 19:43, May 12, 2024 (EDT)
 
{{@|Ray Trace}} That was a really good example of obvious comedy. SpongeBob itself is comedy, so that was a good idea to use that as an example! [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 08:12, May 15, 2024 (EDT)
 
{{@|Hewer}} I updated the rules blurb, is it good now? [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 11:34, May 15, 2024 (EDT)
:Yeah, that works. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 11:43, May 15, 2024 (EDT)


==Removals==
===Standardize "History in the Super Mario franchise" headings under certain conditions===
===Deleting shadow or shadowless versions of artworks===
Inspired by [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]]'s [[User talk:Nintendo101/flowerpot|flowerpot]] subpage (from an [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=User:Nintendo101/flowerpot&oldid=4209600 earlier revision], before it had been removed), this proposal aims to standardize the use of '''<nowiki>==History in the Super Mario franchise==</nowiki>''' over '''<nowiki>==History==</nowiki>'''. This will help make it clear to readers what is ''Super Mario'' and what is not while reading articles, and prevent potential disputes once a standard has been set. Please note that this proposal is '''NOT''' about the ''DK'', ''Yoshi'', or ''Wario'' subfranchises.
Occasionally (but often enough to have happened repeatedly), users including myself have uploaded both shadow and no shadow versions of the same artwork, and treated them as separate pictures in galleries. Several times, I've seen users questioning the necessity of having both versions stored on this website. Therefore I feel we are obliged to establish a decision through a proposal as to which version we should keep.
 
For an article to apply for the '''<nowiki>==History in the Super Mario franchise==</nowiki>''' heading, the article should meet one of the following criteria:
 
#It is a generic subject (e.g. [[Grape]]s) or something from real life, like a person, with a fictional portrayal in ''Super Mario'' media, such as [[Thomas Jefferson]]. An example of this [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Dinosaur&oldid=4213618 was on the Dinosaur article before being reverted].
#It is from the [[Super Mario (franchise)|''Super Mario'' franchise]] '''BUT''' has also appeared in non-''Super Mario'' media, popular examples being the [[Super Smash Bros. (series)|''Super Smash Bros.'' series]] and the ''[[Minecraft]]'' textures. Everything that isn't ''Super Mario'' would be subheadings of '''<nowiki>==History in other games==</nowiki>''', or '''<nowiki>==History in other media==</nowiki>''' if the subject also (or instead) appeared in publications, television shows, etc. not in ''Super Mario'' franchise. An example of this can be seen on the [[History of Luigi]] article.
#Crossover content, including Nintendo products, as they appear in ''Super Mario'' media. Examples can be seen on the [[Game Boy]], [[Link]], and [[Egg Pawn]] pages.
 
For the first bullet point, this would help establish that real and generic subjects are not from ''Super Mario'' and makes the History heading less ambiguous. On the [[Dinosaur]] article, for example, are we reading about history of dinosaurs as they exist in real life, up to the point of extinction, or from the ''Super Mario'' franchise? It's the latter. For [[George Washington]], are we reading history about him from the 18th century or as he exists in the ''Super Mario'' franchise? It's also the latter, clearly.
 
For the second bullet point, this would help eliminate the popular misconception that ''Super Smash Bros.'' is part of the ''Super Mario'' franchise and help better contextualize ''Super Mario'' as it exists in other media, like sometimes ''Zelda'' or ''Minecraft'', rather than being integral to the same degree as their main appearances in ''Super Mario'' media itself.
 
For the third bullet point, this would eliminate confusion that the history is talking about Nintendo products in general, like when they were produced, the amount of sales generated, etc. and rather mention its appearances within the ''Super Mario'' franchise itself. History on Nintendo products themselves can be found on [[nwiki:|NintendoWiki]]. Similarly, for articles like [[Link]], it helps when the History section specifies it is of Link as he appears in the ''Super Mario'' franchise. Then connections to ''Super Mario'' go under the "History in other media" heading.
 
To make it short, if this proposal passes, and <nowiki>==History==</nowiki> is changed to <nowiki>==History in the ''Super Mario'' franchise==</nowiki> (and split into a separate <nowiki>==History in other media==</nowiki> in the case of criteria #2) on an article that can be categorized by any of the three numbered bullet points above, '''users will not be allowed to revert it back to the initial <nowiki>==History==</nowiki> heading''', like in the [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Dinosaur&diff=next&oldid=4213618 aforementioned case involving the Dinosaur article].


An example of the difference may be seen on revisions of [[:File:Dixie Kong - Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze.png]]. Most of the other artworks concerned by this proposal are versions of ''Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U'' character artworks.
'''Proposer''': {{User|Super Mario RPG}}<br>
'''Deadline''': May 31, 2024, 23:59 GMT


'''Proposer:''' {{User|YoshiKong}}<br>
====Support for all three options====
'''Deadline:''' August 18, 2016, 23:59 GMT
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} I'm for this option.
#{{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} Yes. Also, for the flowerpot thing, I have that saved (with a few tweaks) [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)/Nintendo101's flowerpot old revision saved plus tweaks|here]].


====Replace shadowless with shadows====
====Apply to only crossover content and real products====
::{{User|YoshiKong}} &ndash; <s>I would like to see us keep the artworks with shadows, as they would aesthetically be the most true and complete version of the artwork. Onwards, users should be more careful when cropping artworks with shadows. Sometimes it is difficult to be sure when a shadow ends, due to the pixels fading as they move away from the character. We would not want users cropping out parts of a shadow accidentally.</s> &ndash; See my most recent comment.
#{{User|Wildgoosespeeder}} - Per proposer.


====Replace shadows with shadowless====
====Oppose====
::Although this is not my preference, I will explain the advantages nevertheless. Artworks without a shadow are able to be cropped tighter (there will be less space around the image). This means that the artworks will be displayed more clearly when placed in galleries and other small thumbnails.  
#{{User|Hewer}} Similar to your [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/65#Standardize a "Cameo appearances" section|previous]] [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/65#Standardize the "Other appearances" scope to include anything that's not a Super Mario game|proposals]] about reorganising history sections, I don't really see what we'd gain from this. For the first and third bullet points, the edit summary that removed it from the [[Dinosaur]] page sums up my thoughts: "This is obvious and unnecessary". Of course we're only going to be covering the subject's history that's within our scope, I don't think anyone's visiting the Dinosaur page seeking a complete history of the Mesozoic Era only to be disappointed when they don't find it. For the second bullet point, I ask the same question as your last attempt to split up non-Mario appearances: why does it not being a Mario game make it worth splitting up? The assertion that they're not "integral to the same degree as their main appearances in Super Mario media itself" feels wrong, games like Smash are major appearances of the Mario characters and are important to their histories, sometimes moreso than appearances in actual Mario games (Smash Melee introducing Yoshi's [[Egg Roll (move)|Egg Roll]], Smash Ultimate being K. Rool's first physical appearance in a decade, etc.). I also again question whether "the popular misconception that Super Smash Bros. is part of the Super Mario franchise" exists or is worth "fixing" in such an indirect way (we already don't consider them Mario games to my knowledge anyway). The [[Game Boy]] example is the only one given where I see some merit in doing this, since we do give some coverage to the actual histories of Nintendo hardware and it could be worth distinguishing the history of their in-universe appearances from that.
#{{User|Wildgoosespeeder}} - I'm OK with the other option as well.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Because this is the <u>Super Mario</u> Wiki, the inherent assumption is that any subject with an article appears in the franchise (including [[Link]] and [[Sonic]]), and that the "History" section would only cover its appearance in the ''Super Mario'' franchise. What else would it be about? If a "history in the Super Mario franchise" was to be implemented anywhere, I feel like it only makes sense for recurring subjects that debuted in the ''Super Mario'' franchise, but make recurring appearances elsewhere (like Chain Chomps, which make some a few appearances in ''Zelda''). But even in that context, I don't know if it would be appropriate. (I also don't agree with the premise that any in-game subject is "generic", regardless of its name or design. The [[grape]]s in ''Yoshi's Story'' are just as derived from the {{wp|grape|real article}} as the [[Sour Bunch]].)
#{{User|Reboot}} - Shadows waste too much space, typically unnecessarily. Voting both other options to oppose "Replace shadowless with shadows"
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Per my edit summary Hewer quoted.
====Keep both versions available on the wiki====
#{{User|FanOfRosalina2007}} Per Nintendo101.
::This would set a precedent to upload and document every minor variation of an existing artwork, which I believe is quite excessive.
#{{User|Jazama}} Per all
#{{User|Bazooka Mario}} This is an incorrect premise. Supporting to keep both versions do not necessarily open invitations to keep every minor variation in the wiki. As Mister Wu pointed out, shadow and shadowless versions are both used in official media, which can bring up the question of which one is the "real" one. It's less complicated, I think, to just use our own discretion on what variation to use and which variation not to use. It's not much of a huge deal to keep both shadow and shadowless versions in the big picture either, so I don't see the harm in keeping both versions.
#{{User|Dine2017}} Under criterion #2, common ''Mario'' subjects such as [[Goomba]] would have a long ==History in the Super Mario franchise== and a short ==History in other games/media==, making the two unbalanced. Also per all. (In the case of [[Game Boy]], I think ==Appearances in the Super Mario franchise== is more accurate, cf. [[Nintendo Entertainment System]] and [[Nintendo 64]].)
#{{User|Reboot}} - Shadows waste too much space, typically unnecessarily. Voting both other options to oppose "Replace shadowless with shadows"
#{{User|Yoshi the Space Station Manager}} Both are necessary.
#{{User|AfternoonLight}} I agree so, let's keep it!
#{{User|SuperYoshiBros}} Per all.
#{{User|Time Turner}} Per all.
#{{User|Baby Luigi}} Per all.
#{{User|NSY}} Per all
#{{User|Ninelevendo}} While both images do not need to be on the same gallery, the aboutfile template suggests linking the image with any other versions, which would make it easier to see or use both. Per all.
#{{User|Ghost Jam}} Per all.


====Comments====
====Comments====
Frankly, I have good use for both versions on the wiki. I like having official shadows on some areas where I need to use artwork, like scene-building with artworks, and sometimes, when building a wallpaper, I prefer using the version without shadows as it's far more convenient that way than cropping out shadows. Though I don't believe in documenting every single minor variation of artwork, I'd keep having shadows and no shadows. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 17:59, 11 August 2016 (EDT)
For clarity, when I say "standardize," (not to be confused with "allow," since I don't think there's anything in the rules that explicitly forbids formatting in the aforementioned three cases), it means if a page is formatted that way, others aren't allowed to revert it, since it's the standard for how said articles should look. Also, {{@|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}}, glad to see that flowerpot page. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 14:32, May 17, 2024 (EDT)
:"For clarity, when I say "standardize," (not to be confused with "allow," since I don't think there's anything in the rules that explicitly forbids formatting in the aforementioned three cases), it means if a page is formatted that way, others aren't allowed to revert it, since it's the standard for how said articles should look." Thanks for the clarification! My support will still be there. "Also, {{@|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}}, glad to see that flowerpot page." Thanks! I wanted to keep/expand on it as a subpage of my userpage, b/c I didn't want any edit conflicts. You and {{@|Nintendo101}} are free to edit it if you want. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 14:43, May 17, 2024 (EDT)


:I understand that there are advantages in having both versions. But I have seen users bringing up time and time again whether we really should be storing all these versions. Websites like PidgiWiki are dedicated to documenting and archiving every artwork variation. I just felt that it wasn't within ''our'' goal. Of course we want to archive all the different artwork across all games and media, but I feel that the "different artwork" scope we are going by is becoming too narrow when it comes to shadows/non-shadows. Although they're nice resources to have (for user purposes, like you said), it's not necessary for our article/gallery commentary. &ndash; {{User|YoshiKong}} 18:25, 11 August 2016 (EDT)
Wasn't there a proposal about roughly the same thing not too long ago? You're meant to wait 28 days between proposals on the same thing, so if that's the case, we don't exactly wanna wait for a substantial amount of votes before calling attention to it. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 15:12, May 17, 2024 (EDT)
:No, I think this is different. That one had to do with removing franchise headers, which this one doesn't. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 15:23, May 17, 2024 (EDT)
::Yeah, this one is not about removing headings. It's about modifying "History" to "History in the ''Super Mario'' franchise" in one of three case, and in one case (if there's appearances outside of ''Super Mario''), splitting "History in other games/media"  into its own history heading. See what I did on [[Don Bongo]] as an example. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 15:39, May 17, 2024 (EDT)


::I was one person that questioned needing shadow and shadowless where we should only require only one of the two but I never got a response. [[Gallery talk:Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U#Shadow and Shadowless?]] --{{User:Wildgoosespeeder/sig}} 18:34, 11 August 2016 (EDT)
Where would appearances in things like Smash and Captain N go in this case? {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:40, May 17, 2024 (EDT)
:::To be honest, I just stumbled upon the case of the arcade version of [[Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games (arcade)|Mario & Sonic at the Rio 2016 Olympic Games]] that uses [http://www.mariowiki.com/File:Amy_Rio_Arcade_Artwork.png a shadowless versions of an artwork] as main artwork of the character in the official site, while other versions use [http://www.mariowiki.com/images/9/94/Amy_Rio2016.png the same artwork with shadow] in other contexts. So, there can be situations in which both of them are useful - if most artwork used in the page is shadowless, an artwork with shadow feels out of place to me.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 19:14, 11 August 2016 (EDT)
:"History in other media" (see [[Link]] article). [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 15:41, May 17, 2024 (EDT)
::Makes sense. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 15:48, May 17, 2024 (EDT)


This may be a dumb question, but aren't the shadowless versions technically unofficial, as they have been edited out after the fact by a fan? {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 19:27, 11 August 2016 (EDT)
{{@|Hewer|Nintendo101|Nightwicked Bowser}} I thought [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/65#Oppose_13|"This is a Super Mario Wiki" as a argument was getting old]], but that's what you 3 are using! What happened in between? Is it not a old argument anymore? [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 09:04, May 20, 2024 (EDT)
:I wouldn't really say so, because some files are kept in a .pdf format that separates shadows and nonshadows with different layers. You might argue that disabling the shadow layer makes it a "fan" edit, but that they separate layers in the first place is an official move. It's kind of like separating the characters in [[:File:MLPSSXTour.png]], but of course, the characters are more important than shadows, so it's not a perfect analogy. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 20:37, 11 August 2016 (EDT)
:I don't think anything in the comment you reference contradicts any of the sentiments made here. No one is arguing subjects that originated outside of the ''Super Mario'' franchise (like Link, Sonic, [[Mad Scienstein]], [[Wart]], etc.) should not receive coverage, nor that appearances made by subjects that ''did'' emerged within the franchise should not be noted (like ''Link's Awakening'', ''Smash Bros.'', ''Tetris'', ''Qix'', etc.). Rather, because of the inherent scope of the wiki, it is assumed that a "History" section on this site encompasses the subject of the article's appearances in the ''Super Mario'' franchise and it is unclear to me why that needs further clarification. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 09:35, May 20, 2024 (EDT)
::But you said yourself in your oppose vote "Because this is the Super Mario Wiki", which, again, I thought was getting old as an argument. Hewer himself in the linked proposal said it! I'm just confused about what changed in between that and now. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 09:38, May 20, 2024 (EDT)
:::First off, why are you getting on Nintendo101's case for an argument that I made in a proposal they didn't even take part in? Second, my point when I made that comment was that "This is a Super Mario wiki" is getting old as an argument on its own to trim, reorganise, or otherwise alter crossover content like Smash, as Super Mario RPG keeps trying to do, whereas Nintendo101's argument is that, because this is a Super Mario wiki, we don't need to specify that our content is about Super Mario. The same words may have been used, but the context of the arguments is different. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 11:54, May 20, 2024 (EDT)
::::First off, I'm not. Second, I didn't know that the CONTEXT was different, I only paid attention to the words, not the context. Third, a "History" section only covering the ''Super Mario'' franchise kinda neglects the references and cameos. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 12:01, May 20, 2024 (EDT)
:::::Isn't the point of this proposal (which you're supporting) to have history sections that only cover the Super Mario franchise? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:05, May 20, 2024 (EDT)
::::::I would like to redirect you to point 2 of the proposal. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 12:31, May 20, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::Does that not just prove my point? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:34, May 20, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::The history section is going to be split. That's the point of this proposal. YOUR point is just around 1/2 of the point of this proposal. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 12:45, May 20, 2024 (EDT)


I would not support losing shadowless altogether. Look at [[Dixie Kong]]'s infobox. Forcing the shadowed image would have the character on the left half of the image and nothing but empty space and a shadow on the right. I agree that galleries shouldn't show both. Shadowless has the advantage that it will always show more of the character. I could support 1) only shadowless or 2) status quo with a new rule that galleries should include one or the other and not both. --{{User:Porplemontage/sig}} 07:19, 12 August 2016 (EDT)
==New features==
''None at the moment.''


:Mister Wu, and Bazooka Mario's vote has brought up some points which I hadn't considered. Seeing as this is generating some discussion, I will leave the proposal to continue until the deadline. And then I'll plan a follow-up proposal to cover Porple's point. &ndash; {{User|YoshiKong}} 10:30, 12 August 2016 (EDT)
==Removals==
::I don't think that the proposal's aim is to only settle on one kind of image and force editing images that have shadows when we don't have an official shadowless image. The priority should be first come, first serve. Easiest maintenance that way. Whatever is unedited and available. --{{User:Wildgoosespeeder/sig}} 20:35, 12 August 2016 (EDT)
''None at the moment''


===Remove critic ratings from the wiki entirely===
==Changes==
So in a recent proposal, it was decided that series pages such as [[Mario (franchise)]] should have critic ratings removed. My proposal here is to go beyond the scope of that proposal, and expand the decision to every article on the wiki.
===Decide whether to merge the {{tem|more images}}, {{tem|more media}}, and/or {{tem|more refs needed}}===
I may have created the <code>{{tem|more refs needed}}</code> template, but I later saw a discussion for merging it with <code>{{tem|unreferenced}}</code>. That inspired me to plan on merging <code>{{tem|more images}}</code> and <code>{{tem|more media}}</code> with <code>{{tem|image}}</code> and <code>{{tem|media missing}}</code> respectively, so I decided to make a proposal containing three options:


'''Proposer:''' {{User|3D Player 2010}}<br>
;Option 1: Merge <code><nowiki>{{more images}}</nowiki></code>, <code><nowiki>{{more media}}</nowiki></code>, and <code><nowiki>{{more refs needed}}</nowiki></code> with <code><nowiki>{{image}}</nowiki></code>, <code><nowiki>{{media missing}}</nowiki></code>, and <code><nowiki>{{unreferenced}}</nowiki></code> respectively AND create the categories {{fake link|Articles with sections that need more images|Category:Articles with sections that need more images}}, {{fake link|Articles with sections that need more images|Category:Articles with sections that need more media}}.
'''Deadline:''' August 18, 2016, 23:59 GMT
;Option 2: ONLY merge <code><nowiki>{{more refs needed}}</nowiki></code> with <code><nowiki>{{unreferenced}}</nowiki></code>.
;Option 3: Keep as they are.


====Eradicate critic ratings on the wiki====
Here are some examples:
#{{User|3D Player 2010}} Critic ratings have bias to them based on the opinion of the critic, and biases are not desirable on the wiki.


====Keep critic ratings on the wiki====
<span style="font-size: 150%">Template:Image</span>
#{{User|Time Turner}} Reviews are important for gauging the public's reaction to a game. They're also supposed to be professional, meaning that the reviewer's biases shouldn't make themselves apparent in the review.
----
#{{User|Tucayo}} - Very strong oppose; ratings are an important part of how the game was received and we don't feature just any review that pops up, only the more reputable ones.
<pre>
#{{User|Bazooka Mario}} The reasons for removing critic ratings in the (series) pages, for a good reason, do not extend to here. The previous proposal was dealing specifically with the formatting of the ratings content in the (series) pages rather than having ratings information in of itself. This proposal also runs directly against an established MarioWiki policy: [[MarioWiki:Reception and sales]], so this proposal may not even be allowed, especially without any sort of lengthy discussion. As the policy puts it, "illustrating its real-world impact and popularity is just as important [as] detailing the fictional minutiae of the Mario franchise" and if this proposal passes, it will leave a major gap in our coverage of everything ''Mario'', which runs against encyclopedia philosophy.
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#FF6;border:1px solid #630">
#{{User|AfternoonLight}} Keep it! Take ''[[Mario Kart 8]]'' for example. Metacritic scored that game 88 out of 100. That is why I'm keeping it!
It has been requested that {{#if:{{{more|}}}|'''more images'''|at least one '''image'''}} be [[Special:Upload|uploaded]] for this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}. Remove this notice only after the {{#if:{{{more|}}}|additional images|image(s)}} have been added. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Specific(s):''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}}}
#{{User|Andymii}} Per all. It's an important part of the reception a game has received. IGN and GameSpot (the ones we usually feature) are very reputable sources, so there's no reason to remove them.
</div><includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles {{#if:{{{section|}}}|with sections}} that need {{#if:{{{more|}}}|more images|an image}}]]}}</includeonly>
#{{User|Ninelevendo}} As I mentioned in that said proposal, having critical reception on these pages does serve a purpose, unlike on the series' pages. It shows the game's general reception, showcases why the sales might be the way that they are and can help the reader decide on whether or not to buy the game.
</pre>
#{{User|Yoshi the Space Station Manager}} per all.
#{{User|Baby Luigi}} Definitely per all.
#{{User|Yoshi876}} Per Tucky and the lady with the bazooka.
#{{User|NSY}} As the proposer of the last proposal, I wanted critic ratings removed (although replaced) on series pages due to the subjective reviews (only ign and gamespot are shown) and how insignificant they are to the rest of the details shown. However the game pages share a much wider range of ratings and also aggregate scores as well. Per all.


====Comments====
<code><nowiki>{{image|more=yes|section=yes|Sprites}}</nowiki></code>
@AfternoonLight: no offense, but either I'm completely missing the point, but your argument seems a little weak. I know I'm supporting the same choice as you, but could you still explain how Metacritic's score of 88 on ''Mario Kart'' justifies that reviews should be kept on pages? --[[User:Andymii|Andymii]] ([[User talk:Andymii|talk]]) 23:44, 11 August 2016 (EDT)
 
=
 
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#FF6;border:1px solid #630">
It has been requested that '''more images''' be [[Special:Upload|uploaded]] for this section. Remove this notice only after the additional images have been added. '''Specific(s):''' Sprites
</div>
 
<span style="font-size: 150%">Template:Media missing</span>
----
<pre>
{| class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#C88AFF;border:1px solid #630"
|style="padding-right:10px"|[[File:Soundx.png|25px|class=invert-dark]]
|style="padding-top:3px"| It has been requested that {{#if:{{{more|}}}|'''more audio and/or video files'''|at least one '''audio and/or video file'''}} related to this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be uploaded. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Specific(s):''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}<br><small>Please upload all related music, sound effects, voice clips, or any videos for this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}. See the [[Help:Media|help]] page for information on how to get started.</small>
|}<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles {{#if:{{{section|}}}|with sections}} that need {{#if:{{{more|}}}|more media|media}}]]}}</includeonly>
</pre>
 
<code><nowiki>{{media missing|more=yes|section=yes|Voice clips}}</nowiki></code>


==Changes==
=
===Create a template for the TTYD badge drop rates===
On most of the pages created for the badges that appear in TTYD, there's a handy infobox that shows the rates of badges being held or dropped by enemies during a battle. An example is shown below.


{|class= width=30% cellspacing=0 border=2 cellpadding=3 style="border-collapse:collapse;" colspan="3;" style="text-align: center;"
{| class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#C88AFF;border:1px solid #630"
|-style="background: #90ae80"
|style="padding-right:10px"|[[File:Soundx.png|25px|class=invert-dark]]
!colspan="3;"|Badge Rates in ''Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door''<br>[[File:PMTTYD Badge HPplus.png]]<br>HP Plus
|style="padding-top:3px"| It has been requested that '''more audio and/or video files''' related to this section be uploaded. '''Specific(s):''' Voice clips<br><small>Please upload all related music, sound effects, voice clips, or any videos for this section. See the [[Help:Media|help]] page for information on how to get started.</small>
|-style="background: #a9cb96"
|colspan="3;"|Roll over Rate types for descriptions, and dotted-lined rates to show percentages out of 100.
|-style="background: #c4d7ba"
!Enemy
!{{H:title|The rate of an enemy holding an item or badge in battle, that can also be stolen with Ms. Mowz's Kiss Thief, even if the object is not seen. If this item or badge is seen in battle, the likelihood of it dropping after the battle increases to 20%. Rolling over a hold rate on this chart will show its percentage out of 100.|Hold Rate}}
!{{H:title|The rate of an enemy randomly dropping an item or badge after the battle. Rolling over a drop rate on this chart will show its percentage out of 100.|Drop Rate}}
|-
|[[Gloomba]]
|{{H:title|1%|2/200}}
|{{H:title|0.67%|2/300}}
|-
|[[Spiky Gloomba]]
|{{H:title|1%|2/200}}
|{{H:title|0.67%|2/300}}
|-
|[[Paragloomba]]
|{{H:title|1%|2/200}}
|{{H:title|0.67%|2/300}}
|-
|[[Dark Paratroopa]]
|{{H:title|1%|2/200}}
|{{H:title|0.67%|2/300}}
|-
|[[Dull Bones]]
|{{H:title|0%|0/200}}
|{{H:title|0.67%|2/300}}
|-
|[[Dry Bones]]
|{{H:title|0%|0/200}}
|{{H:title|0.67%|2/300}}
|-
|[[X-Naut]]
|{{H:title|1%|2/200}}
|{{H:title|0.67%|2/300}}
|}
|}


It looks pretty clean and professional. Its code, however, is a much different story.
<code><nowiki>{{media missing|more=yes|Videos}}</nowiki></code>


<nowiki>
=
{|class= width=30% cellspacing=0 border=2 cellpadding=3 style="border-collapse:collapse;" colspan="3;" style="text-align: center;"
 
|-style="background: #90ae80"
{| class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#C88AFF;border:1px solid #630"
!colspan="3;"|Badge Rates in ''Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door''<br>[[File:PMTTYD Badge HPplus.png]]<br>HP Plus
|style="padding-right:10px"|[[File:Soundx.png|25px|class=invert-dark]]
|-style="background: #a9cb96"
|style="padding-top:3px"| It has been requested that '''more audio and/or video files''' related to this article be uploaded. '''Specific(s):''' Videos<br><small>Please upload all related music, sound effects, voice clips, or any videos for this article. See the [[Help:Media|help]] page for information on how to get started.</small>
|colspan="3;"|Roll over Rate types for descriptions, and dotted-lined rates to show percentages out of 100.
|-style="background: #c4d7ba"
!Enemy
!{{H:title|The rate of an enemy holding an item or badge in battle, that can also be stolen with Ms. Mowz's Kiss Thief, even if the object is not seen. If this item or badge is seen in battle, the likelihood of it dropping after the battle increases to 20%. Rolling over a hold rate on this chart will show its percentage out of 100.|Hold Rate}}
!{{H:title|The rate of an enemy randomly dropping an item or badge after the battle. Rolling over a drop rate on this chart will show its percentage out of 100.|Drop Rate}}
|-
|[[Gloomba]]
|{{H:title|1%|2/200}}
|{{H:title|0.67%|2/300}}
|-
|[[Spiky Gloomba]]
|{{H:title|1%|2/200}}
|{{H:title|0.67%|2/300}}
|-
|[[Paragloomba]]
|{{H:title|1%|2/200}}
|{{H:title|0.67%|2/300}}
|-
|[[Dark Paratroopa]]
|{{H:title|1%|2/200}}
|{{H:title|0.67%|2/300}}
|-
|[[Dull Bones]]
|{{H:title|0%|0/200}}
|{{H:title|0.67%|2/300}}
|-
|[[Dry Bones]]
|{{H:title|0%|0/200}}
|{{H:title|0.67%|2/300}}
|-
|[[X-Naut]]
|{{H:title|1%|2/200}}
|{{H:title|0.67%|2/300}}
|}
|}
</nowiki>


The code is fairly complex for such a frequently used infobox, and users inexperienced with code can easily ruin the entire infobox by making a typo in the wrong spot. I propose creating a template which streamlines the code found in these infoboxes, making them more accessible and far easier to edit.
<span style="font-size: 150%">Template:Unreferenced</span>
----
<pre>
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#FC5;border:1px solid #f22">
This {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} '''{{#if:{{{more|}}}|needs additional citations for [[MarioWiki:Citations|verification]]|does not [[MarioWiki:Citations|cite any sources]]}}'''. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Specific(s):''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}<br><small>Please help {{plain link|1=[{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}} improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}]}} by [[MarioWiki:Citations#How to add references|adding citations from reliable sources]].</small>
</div><includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles {{#if:{{{more|}}}|{{#if:{{{section|}}}|with sections}} that need more citations|with {{#if:{{{section|}}}|unsourced sections|no sources}}}}]]}}</includeonly>
</pre>
 
<code><nowiki>{{unreferenced|more=yes|section=yes|Spanish and German names}}</nowiki></code>
 
<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#FC5;border:1px solid #f22">
This section '''needs additional citations for [[MarioWiki:Citations|verification]]'''. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. '''Specific(s):''' Spanish and German names<br><small>Please help {{plain link|1=[{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}} improve this section]}} by [[MarioWiki:Citations#How to add references|adding citations from reliable sources]].</small>
</div>
 
Once the proposal ends with Option 1, we'll be able to merge these templates and then replace the <code><nowiki>{{more images</nowiki></code>, <code><nowiki>{{more media</nowiki></code>, and <code><nowiki>{{more refs needed</nowiki></code> syntax with the <code><nowiki>{{image|more=yes</nowiki></code>, <code><nowiki>{{media missing|more=yes</nowiki></code>, and <code><nowiki>{{unreferenced|more=yes</nowiki></code> syntax respectively. However, once the proposal ends with Option 2, we'll only be able to merge the {{tem|more refs needed}} template and then replace the <code><nowiki>{{more refs needed</nowiki></code> syntax with the <code><nowiki>{{unreferenced|more=yes</nowiki></code> syntax. Once the proposal ends with Option 3, we'll keep the <code><nowiki>{{more refs needed</nowiki></code> template and protect it.
 
'''Proposer''': {{User|GuntherBayBeee}}<br>
'''Deadline''': May 28, 2024, 23:59 GMT


'''Proposer''': {{User|Lord Bowser}}<br>
====Option 1====
'''Deadline''': August 17, 2016, 23:59 GMT
#{{User|GuntherBayBeee}} Per proposal
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} I like the idea of integrating the functionality of the aforementioned templates.


====Create template====
====Option 2====
#{{User|Lord Bowser}} Per my proposal.
#{{User|Pseudo-dino}} That definitely seems a little complex for a template that's repeated that many times, especially with the alt-text on Hold Rate and Drop Rate.
#{{User|AfternoonLight}} Sounds like fun. We have created many templates including the staff, the games, and the companies so, let's do it!
#{{User|Wildgoosespeeder}} The point of a template is to reduce redundancy by only passing in parameters that need to change how something displays. I agree with this just to make things easier to maintain.


====Leave as is====
====Option 3====
#{{User|Time Turner}} Until I see what the proposed template would actually look like, I'm hesitant to support this proposal.
#{{User|Yoshi the Space Station Manager}} The code may look complicated, but if you use copy and paste for the main areas, you will have the thing right. If I see the proposed finish, I might change my vote, but it just needs to be just right. Otherwise, I will say "Leave as is." Reason why? There are a lot of badges. It will be used for all of them. If it doesn't fit like this one fits, I will have a lot of trouble trying to support this.
#{{User|Bazooka Mario}} A proposal merely pointing out the flaws in the current template design is no good.


====Comments====
====Comments====
Of course the coding looks complicated when you paste it without line breaks, that's not what is seen when editing a page. Anyway before I vote, I would like to see your proposed template coding. I think a template would be beneficial to standardize the "drop rate percentage", "hold rate" and "drop rate" messages on the top of the table, and a template would also allow that message coding to not appear on the article page.


However, I have concerns about how an automated template could calculating those percentages. Additionally, you would need to consider how you will allow users to input notes about the unused drop rates, such as those seen at [[Jumpman (Badge)]]. &ndash; {{User|YoshiKong}} 06:08, 10 August 2016 (EDT)
===Create a category for teenagers===
One thing that feels strange to me on this wiki is the current age categories. We have [[:Category:Children|children]] and [[:Category:Babies|babies]]. However, when it comes to teenagers, it either goes to the children category or doesn't go there at all. Granted, both are underage, but it does not help the average user who wants to find all the teenage characters on this wiki. I mean, if we are okay with creating the categories for the previous underaged characters, a third one one wouldn't hurt. For this to count, I looked for every character that was considered to be a teenager in the ''Super Mario'' franchise at one point. We have enough categories for them to be put in, having about ten ''Super Mario'' characters to count. I'm probably missing a couple and if so, please let me know in the comments. The exact criteria are thirteen to seventeen years old or confirmed to be one. Characters like Tiny Kong wouldn't make it in this category as she was never confirmed to be a teenager in her [[Diddy Kong Racing DS|recent design]].


I agree! [[User:AfternoonLight|AfternoonLight]] ([[User talk:AfternoonLight|talk]]) 09:13, 10 August 2016 (EDT)
Below is a list of Super Mario characters who are or were teenagers.
*[[Ashley]]<ref group="a" name="Ashley">[http://ms.nintendo-europe.com/wariowaretouched/enGB/index.html ''WarioWare: Touched!'' European website] She is "fifteen going on 500".</ref>
*[[Axem Rangers]]<ref group="a" name="Axem Rangers">Pelland, Scott, and Kent Miller. Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars Player's Guide. Page 4.</ref>
**[[Axem Red]]
**[[Axem Black]]
**[[Axem Green]]
**[[Axem Pink]]
**[[Axem Yellow]]
*[[Mona]]
*[[Muffy]]
*[[Tommy Treehugger]]


I received an email from {{user|Zootalo}} just now. [[wikipedia:singular they|They]] said that these rates are now outdated. For example, the drop rate of HP Plus for Gloomba is now implied to be 2/249, not 2/200, according to the newer version of the document I cited below. I'm not sure if there is urgent need to update them, but if someone wants, I would suggest displaying the demical form on the page and the fraction form in the mouseover text, since fractions with varying denominators are hard to read. {{User|A gossip-loving Toad}}
And here is a list of non-''Super Mario'' characters who would be affected by this proposal. '''This only applies if they were portrayed as teenagers within said game. For example, [[Vector|Vector the Crocodile]] was labeled as one in his earlier appearances but is considered an adult in later games, including all ''Mario & Sonic'' games.'''
*[[Inkling]]
*[[Pac-Man]]<ref group="a" name="pacster">''[[Mario Kart Arcade GP DX]]'' uses the ''Ghostly Adventures'' design of Pacster, who is a teenager in that show.</ref>
*[[Blaze|Blaze the Cat]]
*[[Espio|Espio the Chameleon]]
*[[Jet (Sonic the Hedgehog)|Jet the Hawk]]
*[[Knuckles|Knuckles the Echidna]]
*[[Silver|Silver the Hedgehog]]
*[[Sonic|Sonic the Hedgehog]]
*[[List of fighters debuting in Super Smash Bros.#Ness|Ness]]<ref group="a" name="earthbound"> His age is listed as twelve to thirteen years old.</ref>
*[[List of fighters debuting in Super Smash Bros. Melee#Roy|Roy]] from ''Fire Emblem''
*[[List of fighters debuting in Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U#Little Mac|Little Mac]]
*[[List of fighters debuting in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate#Sora|Sora]]
*[[List of Assist Trophy characters#Issac|Isaac]]
*[[List of Assist Trophy characters#Jeff|Jeff]]<ref group="a" name="earthbound"></ref>
*[[List of Assist Trophy characters#Lyn|Lyn]]<ref group="a" name="lyn"> Depending on the languages of her games, she is either of teenage age or adult age.</ref>


:Sounds like a Wikidata for MarioWiki <code>:P</code> (By the way, the [http://www.gamefaqs.com/gamecube/920182-paper-mario-the-thousand-year-door/faqs/63451 original data] is two-dimensional, meaning they can also be sorted by enemy. Would an update to {{tem|pm2enemybox}} be appropriate? There are so much data in that document!) {{user|A gossip-loving Toad}}
I don't know any potential counterarguments in disfavor of this, because this would be much more helpful and less broad than having any underage character be sent to the children category, especially when that's rare, as some of the above-mentioned characters are not put in that category. Plus, it would be weird to call Little Mac or Mona a child. Yes, I know people sometimes describe teens as kids, but it's a lot more misleading if put in those categories.


But the enemy infobox already displays items which could be potentially dropped by an enemy. Unless I misunderstood your suggestion? &ndash; {{User|YoshiKong}} 16:51, 10 August 2016 (EDT)
'''Proposer''': {{User|TheUndescribableGhost}}<br>
'''Deadline''': May 28, 2024, 23:59 GMT


Time Turner: I imagine that the created template would be a generic version of the templates that are currently used on this article (like the one shown above). [[User:Pseudo-dino|Pseudo-dino]] ([[User talk:Pseudo-dino|talk]]) 03:46, 11 August 2016 (EDT)
====Support====
:I'd rather see it put into practice first than simply imagine what it would look like. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 15:38, 11 August 2016 (EDT)
#{{User|TheUndescribableGhost}} Per proposal
::Here's an example of what I mean:


{|class= width=30% cellspacing=0 border=2 cellpadding=3 style="border-collapse:collapse;" colspan="3;" style="text-align: center;"
====Oppose====
|-style="background: #90ae80"
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - The main reason we have the "babies" category is the ''Yoshi's Island'' games having the baby counterparts. There's no teen-focused variation of the ''Mario'' cast (knock on wood, there)
!colspan="3;"|Badge Rates in ''Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door''<br>{{{1}}}<br>{{{2}}}
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} As someone who feels [[:Category:Children]] doesn't have much of a reason to exist, a category for teenagers would have even less of a reason to.
|-style="background: #a9cb96"
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per SolemnStormcloud.
|colspan="3;"|Roll over Rate types for descriptions, and dotted-lined rates to show percentages out of 100.
#{{User|Tails777}} I just don't think this is entirely necessary. At least the Mario series makes the whole babies thing really simple; they are characters designed to be babies and stay that way. The third party examples going by "which design is based on a teenage appearance" just feels unnecessary. I think, in the end, it's just not a necessary category.
|-style="background: #c4d7ba"
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} We really don't need this, especially since a lot of characters that are actually concretely teenagers are just kinda like that, and it's not like... a tenet of who they are. When the Child category is already under scrutiny for how it's moreso trivia than actually relevant information, this has even less of a leg to stand on. The closest thing we could think of is basically reworking the Child category to a "Minors" category, but ''even then'', that would succumb to the same issues the current Child category does... And that's not even getting in to the total elephant room that is [[Ashley]], who is '''allegedly''' "15, going on 500", and whether they're on the "teenager" side of this equation or the "adult" side of this equation seems to depend on how funny Nintendo feels like being that day--and more often than not, they do answer "teenager", if not even younger than that.
!Enemy
#{{User|Arend}} Per all. Also, to expand on the Ashley thing, in Japan, her age is left ambiguous, but in those Japanese versions for ''Touched'' and ''Gold'' onwards, Ashley sounds remarkably ''younger'' than in Western versions of those games. That makes it seem that Ashley was originally intended to be a preteen child, but the west aged her up to fifteen since she looks older than the kid characters we've had at the time (e.g. [[9-Volt]], who is a 4th-grader). Then again, Ashley looks about as old as Penny Crygor, who is a middle schooler... needless to say, Ashley's true age is a can of worms in itself.
!{{H:title|The rate of an enemy holding an item or badge in battle, that can also be stolen with Ms. Mowz's Kiss Thief, even if the object is not seen. If this item or badge is seen in battle, the likelihood of it dropping after the battle increases to 20%. Rolling over a hold rate on this chart will show its percentage out of 100.|Hold Rate}}
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
!{{H:title|The rate of an enemy randomly dropping an item or badge after the battle. Rolling over a drop rate on this chart will show its percentage out of 100.|Drop Rate}}
#{{User|Jazama}} Per all
|-
#{{User|MegaBowser64}} Teenagers suck, per all
|{{{3}}}
|{{H:title|{{{4}}}%|{{{5}}}/200}}
|{{H:title|{{{6}}}%|{{{7}}}/300}}
|-
|{{{8}}}
|{{H:title|{{{9}}}%|{{{10}}}/200}}
|{{H:title|{{{11}}}%|{{{12}}}/300}}
|-
|{{{13}}}
|{{H:title|{{{14}}}%|{{{15}}}/200}}
|{{H:title|{{{16}}}%|{{{17}}}/300}}
|-
|{{{18}}}
|{{H:title|{{{19}}}%|{{{20}}}/200}}
|{{H:title|{{{21}}}%|{{{22}}}/300}}
|-
|{{{23}}}
|{{H:title|{{{24}}}%|{{{25}}}/200}}
|{{H:title|{{{26}}}%|{{{27}}}/300}}
|-
|{{{28}}}
|{{H:title|{{{29}}}%|{{{30}}}/200}}
|{{H:title|{{{31}}}%|{{{32}}}/300}}
|-
|{{{33}}}
|{{H:title|{{{34}}}%|{{{35}}}/200}}
|{{H:title|{{{36}}}%|{{{37}}}/300}}
|}


::This might be bad template design, I'm not sure, but someone with more experience could do it better, I'm sure. It just matches the current design (but probably uses too many parameters). [[User:Pseudo-dino|Pseudo-dino]] ([[User talk:Pseudo-dino|talk]]) 18:50, 11 August 2016 (EDT)
====Comments====
:::It's... not exactly user-friendly. This kind of code can get easily tangled up with vague variables, especially when there are a lot of them. I'm also interested in seeing the proposer's rendition of the template. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 19:31, 11 August 2016 (EDT)
Not sure if I did the references right for this. [[User:TheUndescribableGhost|TheUndescribableGhost]] ([[User talk:TheUndescribableGhost|talk]]) 22:54, May 21, 2024 (EDT)
::::honestly I'm rubbish when it comes to making templates but my design would probably end up being very similar to the one Pseudo-dino did. {{User:Lord Bowser/sig}} 22:18, 12 August 2016 (EDT)
::::How about two templates where the main template is responsible for the table as a whole and a sub-template that is responsible for each table row? --{{User:Wildgoosespeeder/sig}} 15:29, 12 August 2016 (EDT)
::::<nowiki>{{TTYD-badge
|image=
|name=
|
{{TTYD-badge-row
|enemy=
|in-battle=
|drop=
}}
{{TTYD-badge-row
|enemy=
|in-battle=
|drop=
}}
}}</nowiki>
:Or you know, just have the beginning of the design put in a template, then use it as normal:
{{User:Megadardery/2|[[File:Jumpman.gif]]|Jumpman}}
|[[Poison Puff]]
|{{H:title|0%|0/200}}
|{{H:title|0.67%|2/300}}
|-
|[[Spiny]] #2 ([[Glitz Pit]], [[Spike Storm]])
|{{H:title|0%|0/200}}
|<font color=silver>{{H:title|0.67% Glitz Pit enemies do not drop items, but this rate is present in the game's coding.|2/300}}</font>
|}
:Other than this option (which is actually preferred, because if a change is needed in the code, it's better to update it in one location), I wouldn't support the proposal, having countless parameters is just silly.--{{User:Megadardery/sig}} 06:45, 12 August 2016 (EDT)
::yeah I would likely end up using this design template if the proposal were to pass. {{User:Lord Bowser/sig}} 05:38, 16 August 2016 (EDT)<br>
also, I apologize for not being too clear on the proposal; creating a template sounded like a good idea on paper, but after seeing that a proposed template would likely be just as clunky as the original, I'm beginning to have mixed feelings about this myself. I guess I still need to get used to the wiki, lol. {{User:Lord Bowser/sig}} 05:38, 16 August 2016 (EDT)


Okay. But remember that it's one thing to simply get an ''idea'' passed through the proposal process. You must also be sure that you are capable of actually creating and implementing what you are proposing. If you require help or advice, then you can ask for that help, either from users who may have relevant experience, or any of us from the admin team if you had any doubts. Preferably, such communications with other users should take place before proposing. If it's unclear for voters on how a proposed idea would be followed through, then generally they'd be reluctant to support it. &ndash; {{User|YoshiKong}} 07:20, 16 August 2016 (EDT)
====References====
<references group="a"/>


==Miscellaneous==
==Miscellaneous==
''None at the moment.''
''None at the moment.''

Latest revision as of 15:05, May 26, 2024

Image used as a banner for the Proposals page
Current time:
Monday, May 27th, 15:34 GMT
Proposals can be new features (such as an extension), the removal of previously-added features that have tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action is taken.
  • "Vote" periods last for one week.
  • Any user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so (not, e.g., "I like this idea!").
  • All proposals must be approved by a majority of voters, including proposals with more than two options.
  • For past proposals, see the proposal archive and the talk page proposal archive.

A proposal section works like a discussion page: comments are brought up and replied to using indents (colons, such as : or ::::) and all edits are signed using the code {{User|User name}}.

How to

Rules

  1. If users have an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with the other users, who will then vote about whether or not they think the idea should be used. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and writing guidelines. Proposals must include a link to the draft page. Any pages that would be largely affected by the proposal should be marked with {{proposal notice}}.
  2. Only registered, autoconfirmed users can create, comment in, or vote on proposals and talk page proposals. Users may vote for more than one option, but they may not vote for every option available.
  3. Proposals end at the end of the day (23:59) one week after voting starts, except for writing guidelines and talk page proposals, which run for two weeks (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is one week later on Monday, August 8, at 23:59 GMT.
  4. Every vote should have a strong, sensible reason accompanying it. Agreeing with a previously mentioned reason given by another user is accepted (including "per" votes), but tangential comments, heavy sarcasm, and other misleading or irrelevant quips are just as invalid as providing no reason at all.
  5. Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. Voters can remove or rewrite their own vote at any time, but the final decision to remove another user's vote lies solely with the administrators.
    • Users can also use the comments section to bring up any concerns or mistakes in regards to the proposal itself. In such cases, it's important the proposer addresses any concerns raised as soon as possible. Even if the supporting side might be winning by a wide margin, that should be no reason for such questions to be left unanswered. They may point out any missing details that might have been overlooked by the proposer, so it's a good idea as the proposer to check them frequently to achieve the most accurate outcome possible.
  6. If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(banned)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
  7. No proposal can overturn the decision of a previous proposal that is less than 4 weeks (28 days) old.
  8. Any proposal where none of the options have at least four votes will be extended for another week. If after three extensions, no options have at least four votes, the proposal will be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
  9. All proposals that end up in a tie will be extended for another week. Proposals with more than two options must also be extended another week if any single option does not have a majority support: i.e. more than half of the total number of voters must appear in a single voting option, rather than one option simply having more votes than the other options.
  10. If a proposal with only two voting options has more than ten votes, it can only pass or fail with a margin of at least three votes, otherwise the deadline will be extended for another week as if no majority was reached at all.
  11. Proposals can only be extended up to three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, the proposal fails and can only be re-proposed after four weeks, at the earliest.
  12. All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
  13. If the administrators deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to remove it at any time.
  14. Proposals can only be rewritten or deleted by their proposer within the first three days of their creation (six days for talk page proposals). However, proposers can request that their proposal be deleted by an administrator at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that canceled proposals must also be archived.
  15. Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting or otherwise fixing up pages. To organize efforts about improving articles on neglected or completely missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
  16. Proposals cannot be made about promotions and demotions. Users can only be promoted and demoted by the will of the administration.
  17. No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.
  18. Proposals must have a status quo option (e.g. Oppose, Do nothing) unless the status quo itself violates policy.

Basic proposal and support/oppose format

This is an example of what your proposal must look like, if you want it to be acknowledged. If you are inexperienced or unsure how to set up this format, simply copy the following and paste it into the fitting section. Then replace the [subject] - variables with information to customize your proposal, so it says what you wish. If you insert the information, be sure to replace the whole variable including the squared brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information", not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but what each voting section is supporting must be clearly defined. Such options should also be kept to a minimum, and if something comes up in the comments, the proposal can be amended as necessary.

===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|[enter your username here]}}<br>
'''Deadline''': [insert a deadline here, 7 days after the proposal was created (14 for writing guidelines and talk page proposals), at 23:59 GMT, in the format: "May 27, 2024, 23:59 GMT"]

====Support====
#{{User|[enter your username here]}} [make a statement indicating that you support your proposal]

====Oppose====

====Comments====

Users will now be able to vote on your proposal, until the set deadline is reached. Remember, you are a user as well, so you can vote on your own proposal just like the others.

To support, or oppose, just insert "#{{User|[add your username here]}}" at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's proposal. If you are voting on your own proposal, you can just say "Per my proposal".

Talk page proposals

All proposals dealing with a single article or a specific group of articles are held on the talk page of one of the articles in question. Proposals dealing with massive amounts of splits, merges or deletions across the wiki should still be held on this page.

For a list of all settled talk page proposals, see MarioWiki:Proposals/TPP archive and Category:Settled talk page proposals.

Rules

  1. All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom) using {{TPPDiscuss}}. Include a brief description of the proposal while also mentioning any pages affected by it, a link to the talk page housing the discussion, and the deadline. If the proposal involves a page that is not yet made, use {{fake link}} to communicate its title in the description. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links. Place {{TPP}} under the section's header, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with {{SettledTPP}}.
  2. All rules for talk page proposals are the same as mainspace proposals (see the "How to" section above), with the exceptions made by Rules 3 and 4 as follows:
  3. Voting in talk page proposals will be open for two weeks, not one (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, it ends two weeks later on Monday, August 15, 2011, at 23:59 GMT.
  4. The talk page proposal must pertain to the article it is posted on.
  5. When a talk page proposal passes, it should be removed from this list and included in the list under the "Unimplemented proposals" section until the proposed changes have been enacted.

List of ongoing talk page proposals

Unimplemented proposals

Proposals

Merge the Wrecking Crew and VS. Wrecking Crew phases into list articles, Axis (ended February 24, 2022)
Do not consider usage of classic recurring themes as references to the game of origin, Swallow (ended March 9, 2022)
Split Mario Kart Tour character variants into list articles, Tails777 (ended May 4, 2022)
Enforce WCAG Level AA standards to mainspace and template content, PanchamBro (ended May 29, 2022)
Change how RPG enemy infoboxes classify role, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 18, 2022)
Trim away detailed special move information for all non-Mario fighters, Koopa con Carne (ended January 30, 2023)
Classify the Just Dance series as a guest appearance, Spectrogram (ended April 27, 2023)
Establish a standard for long course listings in articles for characters/enemies/items/etc., Koopa con Carne (ended June 8, 2023)
Consider filenames as sources and create redirects, Axis (ended August 24, 2023)
Add tabbers to race/battle course articles, GuntherBB (ended November 18, 2023)
Remove elemental creatures categories from various Super Mario RPG enemies, Swallow (ended January 11, 2024)
Standardize the formatting of foreign and explanatory words and phrases in "Names in other languages" tables, Annalisa10 (ended February 7, 2024)
Merge Super Mario Bros. (film) subjects with their game counterparts, JanMisali (ended April 18, 2024)
Remove profiles and certain other content related to the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia from the wiki, Koopa con Carne (ended April 30, 2024)
Break alphabetical order in enemy lists to list enemy variants below their base form, EvieMaybe (ended May 21, 2024)

Talk page proposals

Split all the clothing, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 12, 2021)
Split the various reissues of Mario Bros., Doc von Schmeltwick (ended April 22, 2022)
Split machine parts, Robo-Rabbit, and flag from Super Duel Mode, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 30, 2022)
Expand source priority exception to include regional English differences, LinkTheLefty (ended January 14, 2023)
Add product IDs in game infoboxes, Windy (ended March 18, 2023)
Remove the list of Super Smash Bros. series objects, Axis (ended May 10, 2023)
Split Special Shot into separate articles by game, Technetium (ended September 30, 2023)
Convert the lists of episode appearances for television series characters into categories, Camwoodstock (ended November 22, 2023)
Change the Super Mario 64 DS level section to include more specific character requirements, Altendo (ended December 20, 2023)
Split the Jungle Buddies from Animal Friends, DrippingYellow (ended December 22, 2023)
Make bestiary list pages for the Minion Quest and Bowser Jr.'s Journey modes, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 11, 2024)
Merge the ghost Bats and Mice from Luigi's Mansion to their respective organic counterparts from the later games, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 20, 2024)
Split Strobomb from Robomb, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 20, 2024)
Split the NES and SNES releases of Wario's Woods, SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (ended March 27, 2024)
Merge Mii Brawler, Mii Swordfighter, and Mii Gunner to Mii, TheUndescribableGhost (ended March 28, 2024)
Split Mario's Time Machine (Nintendo Entertainment System), or the Super Nintendo Entertainment version along with both console versions of Mario is Missing!, LinkTheLefty (ended April 11, 2024)
Remove non-Super Mario content from Super Smash Bros. series challenges articles, BMfan08 (ended May 3, 2024)
Merge Stompybot 3000 with Colonel Pluck, DrippingYellow (ended May 4, 2024)
Split "Team Dinosaur" from The Dinosaurs, Blinker (ended May 15, 2024)
Rename Moneybags to Moneybag (enemy), Hewer (ended May 20, 2024)
Delete Memory Card, Nightwicked Bowser (ended May 23, 2024)

Writing guidelines

Consider "humorous" and other related terms as frequently misused in MarioWiki:Good writing

A writing quirk that seems to pop up everywhere (particularly in the Mario RPG pages/sections) that always drives me nuts is referring to a situation or action as "comical" or "humorous". Generally, these words are used to describe something that is percieved to be amusing, which is obviously subjective and should not be present in encyclopediac writing. However, usage of these words on here seems to follow an improper, "objective" pattern of referring to features intended by the developers as gags or jokes. Examples of blatant misuse:

From the Minion Quest: The Search for Bowser article:

The group runs into Prince Peasley, and after a battle ensues with a few Piranha Beans, Captain Goomba humorously sends out one of them to attack Prince Peasley.

Who says Captain Goomba is trying to make a joke out of sending monsters out to fight an ego-centric prince? In Captain Goomba's eyes, he's practically fighting for his life trying not to be eaten. The only one who could find this humorous is the viewer, and since this is a story synopsis in an encyclopedia, there shouldn't be any viewer.

From Goomba Mask:

In Paper Mario: The Origami King, a different Goomba Mask resembling a Paper Macho Goomba appears in the Shogun Studios storage area. If Mario wears it, he spins around and causes the mask's eyes to roll, with the humorous appearance making Olivia laugh.

Even though there is actually an in-game audience this time, the wording still implies that the writer thinks it is humorous. In order to emphasize that it's Olivia who thinks it is funny, I changed the last sentence to:

If Mario wears it, he spins around and causes the mask's eyes to roll, which Olivia finds amusing to the point of laughter.

The article for Kruller has quite possibly the most egregious usage of "humorously" I've ever seen:

When Luigi enters the office afterward, Kruller briefly faints from shock at Luigi entering, before entering the next room to find a suitable weapon to defend himself (humorously getting stuck on his back mid-roll) [...] Gooigi then retrieves the Mezzanine's elevator button, with it being humorously revealed that Luigi slept through the entire battle [...] After defeating Kruller in two-player mode, Luigi, who was watching the battle from outside, takes all the credit saying that he did it, after which Gooigi humorously copies Luigi as he had actually defeated Kruller [...]

All of these are jokes meant for the audience. And once again, because this is a synopsis in an encyclopedia, there shouldn't be an audience.

And there's way more that I haven't mentioned (just look up the word "humorous" on here and you'll see what I mean). To summarize how I feel this term has been frequently misused, in a form easily copyable for the rules:

Humorous/Comical/etc.
"Humorous", along with other similar words, is used from an observational perspective to describe something one finds amusing or funny, which is, of course, subjective on the part of the writer and should be avoided in an encyclopedia. However, it is commonly misused to refer to anything that is specifically written to be a joke or a gag by the authors of a piece of media. These kinds of words should generally be used only when a character or person relevant to the article finds something amusing. Not to be confused with "comedic", a word that simply means something relates to comedy in general, and is fine to use if a joke is deliberate on the part of a character (or, in case of references to the media's development, a developer).

Proposer: DrippingYellow (talk)
Deadline: May 26, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. DrippingYellow (talk) This whole situation is, dare I say it... "humorous". Per proposal.
  2. Camwoodstock (talk) Per proposal. Flowery writing is no laughing matter!
  3. Hewer (talk) I'd add that "comedic" should be used instead to get across that something is meant to be funny while using more objective language, but otherwise, sure, I'll humour this idea.
  4. Ray Trace (talk) We should just get rid of that subjective adjective altogether, let readers decide from the context of the quote if it's humorous or not, we don't need to write an editorial about it (ie sentences such as "Patrick gets caught by Sandy's lasso and dragged back, resulting in a nuclear explosion" already conveys to the reader that it's comedic)
  5. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per all.
  6. Jazama (talk) Per all

Oppose

Comments

"Comical" and "comedic" should be fine, as those simply mean relating to comedy. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:31, May 12, 2024 (EDT)

"Comedic" is definitely fine, but in multiple dictionary sources I've come across, the definition of "comical" meaning "relating to comedy" is either listed as obsolete and deprecated, or absent altogether. DrippingYellow (talk) 19:43, May 12, 2024 (EDT)

@Ray Trace That was a really good example of obvious comedy. SpongeBob itself is comedy, so that was a good idea to use that as an example! SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 08:12, May 15, 2024 (EDT)

@Hewer I updated the rules blurb, is it good now? DrippingYellow (talk) 11:34, May 15, 2024 (EDT)

Yeah, that works. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 11:43, May 15, 2024 (EDT)

Standardize "History in the Super Mario franchise" headings under certain conditions

Inspired by Nintendo101's flowerpot subpage (from an earlier revision, before it had been removed), this proposal aims to standardize the use of ==History in the Super Mario franchise== over ==History==. This will help make it clear to readers what is Super Mario and what is not while reading articles, and prevent potential disputes once a standard has been set. Please note that this proposal is NOT about the DK, Yoshi, or Wario subfranchises.

For an article to apply for the ==History in the Super Mario franchise== heading, the article should meet one of the following criteria:

  1. It is a generic subject (e.g. Grapes) or something from real life, like a person, with a fictional portrayal in Super Mario media, such as Thomas Jefferson. An example of this was on the Dinosaur article before being reverted.
  2. It is from the Super Mario franchise BUT has also appeared in non-Super Mario media, popular examples being the Super Smash Bros. series and the Minecraft textures. Everything that isn't Super Mario would be subheadings of ==History in other games==, or ==History in other media== if the subject also (or instead) appeared in publications, television shows, etc. not in Super Mario franchise. An example of this can be seen on the History of Luigi article.
  3. Crossover content, including Nintendo products, as they appear in Super Mario media. Examples can be seen on the Game Boy, Link, and Egg Pawn pages.

For the first bullet point, this would help establish that real and generic subjects are not from Super Mario and makes the History heading less ambiguous. On the Dinosaur article, for example, are we reading about history of dinosaurs as they exist in real life, up to the point of extinction, or from the Super Mario franchise? It's the latter. For George Washington, are we reading history about him from the 18th century or as he exists in the Super Mario franchise? It's also the latter, clearly.

For the second bullet point, this would help eliminate the popular misconception that Super Smash Bros. is part of the Super Mario franchise and help better contextualize Super Mario as it exists in other media, like sometimes Zelda or Minecraft, rather than being integral to the same degree as their main appearances in Super Mario media itself.

For the third bullet point, this would eliminate confusion that the history is talking about Nintendo products in general, like when they were produced, the amount of sales generated, etc. and rather mention its appearances within the Super Mario franchise itself. History on Nintendo products themselves can be found on NintendoWiki. Similarly, for articles like Link, it helps when the History section specifies it is of Link as he appears in the Super Mario franchise. Then connections to Super Mario go under the "History in other media" heading.

To make it short, if this proposal passes, and ==History== is changed to ==History in the ''Super Mario'' franchise== (and split into a separate ==History in other media== in the case of criteria #2) on an article that can be categorized by any of the three numbered bullet points above, users will not be allowed to revert it back to the initial ==History== heading, like in the aforementioned case involving the Dinosaur article.

Proposer: Super Mario RPG (talk)
Deadline: May 31, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support for all three options

  1. Super Mario RPG (talk) I'm for this option.
  2. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) Yes. Also, for the flowerpot thing, I have that saved (with a few tweaks) here.

Apply to only crossover content and real products

Oppose

  1. Hewer (talk) Similar to your previous proposals about reorganising history sections, I don't really see what we'd gain from this. For the first and third bullet points, the edit summary that removed it from the Dinosaur page sums up my thoughts: "This is obvious and unnecessary". Of course we're only going to be covering the subject's history that's within our scope, I don't think anyone's visiting the Dinosaur page seeking a complete history of the Mesozoic Era only to be disappointed when they don't find it. For the second bullet point, I ask the same question as your last attempt to split up non-Mario appearances: why does it not being a Mario game make it worth splitting up? The assertion that they're not "integral to the same degree as their main appearances in Super Mario media itself" feels wrong, games like Smash are major appearances of the Mario characters and are important to their histories, sometimes moreso than appearances in actual Mario games (Smash Melee introducing Yoshi's Egg Roll, Smash Ultimate being K. Rool's first physical appearance in a decade, etc.). I also again question whether "the popular misconception that Super Smash Bros. is part of the Super Mario franchise" exists or is worth "fixing" in such an indirect way (we already don't consider them Mario games to my knowledge anyway). The Game Boy example is the only one given where I see some merit in doing this, since we do give some coverage to the actual histories of Nintendo hardware and it could be worth distinguishing the history of their in-universe appearances from that.
  2. Nintendo101 (talk) Because this is the Super Mario Wiki, the inherent assumption is that any subject with an article appears in the franchise (including Link and Sonic), and that the "History" section would only cover its appearance in the Super Mario franchise. What else would it be about? If a "history in the Super Mario franchise" was to be implemented anywhere, I feel like it only makes sense for recurring subjects that debuted in the Super Mario franchise, but make recurring appearances elsewhere (like Chain Chomps, which make some a few appearances in Zelda). But even in that context, I don't know if it would be appropriate. (I also don't agree with the premise that any in-game subject is "generic", regardless of its name or design. The grapes in Yoshi's Story are just as derived from the real article as the Sour Bunch.)
  3. Nightwicked Bowser (talk) Per my edit summary Hewer quoted.
  4. FanOfRosalina2007 (talk) Per Nintendo101.
  5. Jazama (talk) Per all
  6. Dine2017 (talk) Under criterion #2, common Mario subjects such as Goomba would have a long ==History in the Super Mario franchise== and a short ==History in other games/media==, making the two unbalanced. Also per all. (In the case of Game Boy, I think ==Appearances in the Super Mario franchise== is more accurate, cf. Nintendo Entertainment System and Nintendo 64.)

Comments

For clarity, when I say "standardize," (not to be confused with "allow," since I don't think there's anything in the rules that explicitly forbids formatting in the aforementioned three cases), it means if a page is formatted that way, others aren't allowed to revert it, since it's the standard for how said articles should look. Also, @SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA), glad to see that flowerpot page. Super Mario RPG (talk) 14:32, May 17, 2024 (EDT)

"For clarity, when I say "standardize," (not to be confused with "allow," since I don't think there's anything in the rules that explicitly forbids formatting in the aforementioned three cases), it means if a page is formatted that way, others aren't allowed to revert it, since it's the standard for how said articles should look." Thanks for the clarification! My support will still be there. "Also, @SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA), glad to see that flowerpot page." Thanks! I wanted to keep/expand on it as a subpage of my userpage, b/c I didn't want any edit conflicts. You and @Nintendo101 are free to edit it if you want. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 14:43, May 17, 2024 (EDT)

Wasn't there a proposal about roughly the same thing not too long ago? You're meant to wait 28 days between proposals on the same thing, so if that's the case, we don't exactly wanna wait for a substantial amount of votes before calling attention to it. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 15:12, May 17, 2024 (EDT)

No, I think this is different. That one had to do with removing franchise headers, which this one doesn't. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 15:23, May 17, 2024 (EDT)
Yeah, this one is not about removing headings. It's about modifying "History" to "History in the Super Mario franchise" in one of three case, and in one case (if there's appearances outside of Super Mario), splitting "History in other games/media" into its own history heading. See what I did on Don Bongo as an example. Super Mario RPG (talk) 15:39, May 17, 2024 (EDT)

Where would appearances in things like Smash and Captain N go in this case? -- KOOPA CON CARNE 15:40, May 17, 2024 (EDT)

"History in other media" (see Link article). Super Mario RPG (talk) 15:41, May 17, 2024 (EDT)
Makes sense. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 15:48, May 17, 2024 (EDT)

@Hewer @Nintendo101 @Nightwicked Bowser I thought "This is a Super Mario Wiki" as a argument was getting old, but that's what you 3 are using! What happened in between? Is it not a old argument anymore? SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 09:04, May 20, 2024 (EDT)

I don't think anything in the comment you reference contradicts any of the sentiments made here. No one is arguing subjects that originated outside of the Super Mario franchise (like Link, Sonic, Mad Scienstein, Wart, etc.) should not receive coverage, nor that appearances made by subjects that did emerged within the franchise should not be noted (like Link's Awakening, Smash Bros., Tetris, Qix, etc.). Rather, because of the inherent scope of the wiki, it is assumed that a "History" section on this site encompasses the subject of the article's appearances in the Super Mario franchise and it is unclear to me why that needs further clarification. - Nintendo101 (talk) 09:35, May 20, 2024 (EDT)
But you said yourself in your oppose vote "Because this is the Super Mario Wiki", which, again, I thought was getting old as an argument. Hewer himself in the linked proposal said it! I'm just confused about what changed in between that and now. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 09:38, May 20, 2024 (EDT)
First off, why are you getting on Nintendo101's case for an argument that I made in a proposal they didn't even take part in? Second, my point when I made that comment was that "This is a Super Mario wiki" is getting old as an argument on its own to trim, reorganise, or otherwise alter crossover content like Smash, as Super Mario RPG keeps trying to do, whereas Nintendo101's argument is that, because this is a Super Mario wiki, we don't need to specify that our content is about Super Mario. The same words may have been used, but the context of the arguments is different. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 11:54, May 20, 2024 (EDT)
First off, I'm not. Second, I didn't know that the CONTEXT was different, I only paid attention to the words, not the context. Third, a "History" section only covering the Super Mario franchise kinda neglects the references and cameos. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 12:01, May 20, 2024 (EDT)
Isn't the point of this proposal (which you're supporting) to have history sections that only cover the Super Mario franchise? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 12:05, May 20, 2024 (EDT)
I would like to redirect you to point 2 of the proposal. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 12:31, May 20, 2024 (EDT)
Does that not just prove my point? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 12:34, May 20, 2024 (EDT)
The history section is going to be split. That's the point of this proposal. YOUR point is just around 1/2 of the point of this proposal. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 12:45, May 20, 2024 (EDT)

New features

None at the moment.

Removals

None at the moment

Changes

Decide whether to merge the {{more images}}, {{more media}}, and/or {{more refs needed}}

I may have created the {{more refs needed}} template, but I later saw a discussion for merging it with {{unreferenced}}. That inspired me to plan on merging {{more images}} and {{more media}} with {{image}} and {{media missing}} respectively, so I decided to make a proposal containing three options:

Option 1
Merge {{more images}}, {{more media}}, and {{more refs needed}} with {{image}}, {{media missing}}, and {{unreferenced}} respectively AND create the categories Articles with sections that need more images, Articles with sections that need more images.
Option 2
ONLY merge {{more refs needed}} with {{unreferenced}}.
Option 3
Keep as they are.

Here are some examples:

Template:Image 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#FF6;border:1px solid #630">
It has been requested that {{#if:{{{more|}}}|'''more images'''|at least one '''image'''}} be [[Special:Upload|uploaded]] for this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}. Remove this notice only after the {{#if:{{{more|}}}|additional images|image(s)}} have been added. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Specific(s):''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}}}
</div><includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles {{#if:{{{section|}}}|with sections}} that need {{#if:{{{more|}}}|more images|an image}}]]}}</includeonly>

{{image|more=yes|section=yes|Sprites}}

=

It has been requested that more images be uploaded for this section. Remove this notice only after the additional images have been added. Specific(s): Sprites

Template:Media missing 

{| class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#C88AFF;border:1px solid #630"
|style="padding-right:10px"|[[File:Soundx.png|25px|class=invert-dark]]
|style="padding-top:3px"| It has been requested that {{#if:{{{more|}}}|'''more audio and/or video files'''|at least one '''audio and/or video file'''}} related to this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} be uploaded. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Specific(s):''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}<br><small>Please upload all related music, sound effects, voice clips, or any videos for this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}. See the [[Help:Media|help]] page for information on how to get started.</small>
|}<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles {{#if:{{{section|}}}|with sections}} that need {{#if:{{{more|}}}|more media|media}}]]}}</includeonly>

{{media missing|more=yes|section=yes|Voice clips}}

=

Soundx.png It has been requested that more audio and/or video files related to this section be uploaded. Specific(s): Voice clips
Please upload all related music, sound effects, voice clips, or any videos for this section. See the help page for information on how to get started.

{{media missing|more=yes|Videos}}

=

Soundx.png It has been requested that more audio and/or video files related to this article be uploaded. Specific(s): Videos
Please upload all related music, sound effects, voice clips, or any videos for this article. See the help page for information on how to get started.

Template:Unreferenced 

<div class="notice-template maintenance" style="background:#FC5;border:1px solid #f22">
This {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}} '''{{#if:{{{more|}}}|needs additional citations for [[MarioWiki:Citations|verification]]|does not [[MarioWiki:Citations|cite any sources]]}}'''. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. {{#if:{{{reason|{{{1|}}}}}}|'''Specific(s):''' {{{reason|{{{1}}}}}}|<includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles with incomplete maintenance tags]]}}</includeonly>}}<br><small>Please help {{plain link|1=[{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|action=edit}} improve this {{#if:{{{section|}}}|section|article}}]}} by [[MarioWiki:Citations#How to add references|adding citations from reliable sources]].</small>
</div><includeonly>{{#switch:{{NAMESPACE}}||Gallery=[[Category:Articles {{#if:{{{more|}}}|{{#if:{{{section|}}}|with sections}} that need more citations|with {{#if:{{{section|}}}|unsourced sections|no sources}}}}]]}}</includeonly>

{{unreferenced|more=yes|section=yes|Spanish and German names}}

This section needs additional citations for verification. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. Specific(s): Spanish and German names
Please help improve this section by adding citations from reliable sources.

Once the proposal ends with Option 1, we'll be able to merge these templates and then replace the {{more images, {{more media, and {{more refs needed syntax with the {{image|more=yes, {{media missing|more=yes, and {{unreferenced|more=yes syntax respectively. However, once the proposal ends with Option 2, we'll only be able to merge the {{more refs needed}} template and then replace the {{more refs needed syntax with the {{unreferenced|more=yes syntax. Once the proposal ends with Option 3, we'll keep the {{more refs needed template and protect it.

Proposer: GuntherBayBeee (talk)
Deadline: May 28, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Option 1

  1. GuntherBayBeee (talk) Per proposal
  2. Super Mario RPG (talk) I like the idea of integrating the functionality of the aforementioned templates.

Option 2

Option 3

Comments

Create a category for teenagers

One thing that feels strange to me on this wiki is the current age categories. We have children and babies. However, when it comes to teenagers, it either goes to the children category or doesn't go there at all. Granted, both are underage, but it does not help the average user who wants to find all the teenage characters on this wiki. I mean, if we are okay with creating the categories for the previous underaged characters, a third one one wouldn't hurt. For this to count, I looked for every character that was considered to be a teenager in the Super Mario franchise at one point. We have enough categories for them to be put in, having about ten Super Mario characters to count. I'm probably missing a couple and if so, please let me know in the comments. The exact criteria are thirteen to seventeen years old or confirmed to be one. Characters like Tiny Kong wouldn't make it in this category as she was never confirmed to be a teenager in her recent design.

Below is a list of Super Mario characters who are or were teenagers.

And here is a list of non-Super Mario characters who would be affected by this proposal. This only applies if they were portrayed as teenagers within said game. For example, Vector the Crocodile was labeled as one in his earlier appearances but is considered an adult in later games, including all Mario & Sonic games.

I don't know any potential counterarguments in disfavor of this, because this would be much more helpful and less broad than having any underage character be sent to the children category, especially when that's rare, as some of the above-mentioned characters are not put in that category. Plus, it would be weird to call Little Mac or Mona a child. Yes, I know people sometimes describe teens as kids, but it's a lot more misleading if put in those categories.

Proposer: TheUndescribableGhost (talk)
Deadline: May 28, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. TheUndescribableGhost (talk) Per proposal

Oppose

  1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - The main reason we have the "babies" category is the Yoshi's Island games having the baby counterparts. There's no teen-focused variation of the Mario cast (knock on wood, there)
  2. SolemnStormcloud (talk) As someone who feels Category:Children doesn't have much of a reason to exist, a category for teenagers would have even less of a reason to.
  3. Nintendo101 (talk) Per SolemnStormcloud.
  4. Tails777 (talk) I just don't think this is entirely necessary. At least the Mario series makes the whole babies thing really simple; they are characters designed to be babies and stay that way. The third party examples going by "which design is based on a teenage appearance" just feels unnecessary. I think, in the end, it's just not a necessary category.
  5. Camwoodstock (talk) We really don't need this, especially since a lot of characters that are actually concretely teenagers are just kinda like that, and it's not like... a tenet of who they are. When the Child category is already under scrutiny for how it's moreso trivia than actually relevant information, this has even less of a leg to stand on. The closest thing we could think of is basically reworking the Child category to a "Minors" category, but even then, that would succumb to the same issues the current Child category does... And that's not even getting in to the total elephant room that is Ashley, who is allegedly "15, going on 500", and whether they're on the "teenager" side of this equation or the "adult" side of this equation seems to depend on how funny Nintendo feels like being that day--and more often than not, they do answer "teenager", if not even younger than that.
  6. Arend (talk) Per all. Also, to expand on the Ashley thing, in Japan, her age is left ambiguous, but in those Japanese versions for Touched and Gold onwards, Ashley sounds remarkably younger than in Western versions of those games. That makes it seem that Ashley was originally intended to be a preteen child, but the west aged her up to fifteen since she looks older than the kid characters we've had at the time (e.g. 9-Volt, who is a 4th-grader). Then again, Ashley looks about as old as Penny Crygor, who is a middle schooler... needless to say, Ashley's true age is a can of worms in itself.
  7. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per all.
  8. Jazama (talk) Per all
  9. MegaBowser64 (talk) Teenagers suck, per all

Comments

Not sure if I did the references right for this. TheUndescribableGhost (talk) 22:54, May 21, 2024 (EDT)

References

  1. ^ WarioWare: Touched! European website She is "fifteen going on 500".
  2. ^ Pelland, Scott, and Kent Miller. Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars Player's Guide. Page 4.
  3. ^ Mario Kart Arcade GP DX uses the Ghostly Adventures design of Pacster, who is a teenager in that show.
  4. ^ a b His age is listed as twelve to thirteen years old.
  5. ^ Depending on the languages of her games, she is either of teenage age or adult age.

Miscellaneous

None at the moment.

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