Editing Talk:Construction Site Fight

==Swap this article with Balloon Barrage==
This has been bothering me for a very long time. The names of these levels are a blatantly obvious goof by the manual makers and it's clear they were meant to be swapped. Yet we're taking it at face value purely out of formality. I don't think this is a good idea. This is along the lines of "pirana plants" and the Birdo/Ostro mixup. I see no reason to cling to this. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 16:55, August 13, 2022 (EDT)
: I agree. Even the Japanese names make it clear what the correct names are. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 09:13, August 19, 2022 (EDT)
:There's no doubt it was a goof, but I think we need to also take into consideration the manual of the Virtual Console release: though a heavily revised version of the original, it retains these levels' swapped names. To contextualise first and foremost: the majority of this version of the manual is reworded to be less flowery, some sections are completely rewritten, and objects like "Buddy Barrel" and "End of stage" (as the goal portal was called originally) are renamed "DK Barrel" and "Goal" respectively. Few textual remnants slipped through, including enemy descriptions. Whether the names being kept swapped was another error in its own right or the result of some in-house directive to stay true to some of the game's original concepts is not, in my opinion, the wiki's judgement call to make. As it stands, the level's newest released title is still "Construction Site Fight" and, for the record, no level names are translated in other languages for the VC version. Note that I'm going by the European release; particulars in the American version may differ. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 11:09, August 19, 2022 (EDT)
::Not really a fan of the precedent set by directly contradicting the only material we have. Plus, moving articles to names that they never actually used is very likely to be confusing for readers. I'd rather just keep the pages where they are and make note of the oddity, as we already do. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:19, August 19, 2022 (EDT)
:::If anything, the current setup is what's confusing. Construction Site Fight refers to a level that does not take place in one, and Balloon Barrage refers to a level with no balloons except for one in a bonus stage. I fail to see how swapping them would be ''more'' confusing. The only way readers would be confused by this is if they actually read the manual, and even then, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to notice the incredibly obvious goof. I also fail to see how this would set any precedents. This is a completely unique scenario AFAIK, any other attempts to go against game manuals using this to support it would likely be comparing apples to oranges. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 14:13, August 19, 2022 (EDT)
::: Yeah, and like I said, the Japanese names for "Construction Site Fight" and "Balloon Barrage" translate to "Balloon Lift" and "Construction Site" respectively, further indicating that the manual writers goofed in the original and for some odd reason, they never changed the names for the levels despite having every opportunity to. As such, despite the "recent names", it's perfectly obvious that the level names should be switched going by the layouts ''and'' the Japanese names. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 21:50, August 19, 2022 (EDT)
::::It's [https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/NfIAAOSwatldiuS~/s-l400.jpg true] that the Japanese names are swapped, but it should be pointed out that [[Nemo|Nautilus]]/[[Flapper|Nemo]] seems to be in a similar boat. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:02, August 20, 2022 (EDT)
::::: Yeah, the Nemo is called that but the level name in English and Japanese as well as the enemy's Japanese name and the UK magazine make it clear it was supposed to be Nautilus and much like these two levels, the VC manual writers never changed the enemy's name to the correct one, again despite every opportunity to do so. Anywho, based on these two level's Japanese names and the sheer obviousness of the level layouts, their names should be switched. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 13:54, August 20, 2022 (EDT)
::::::Regarding Nemo, I think the level name "Nautilus Chase" is supposed to be simply referring to the {{wp|Nautilus|real world species}} Nemo is based on, like how [[Springin' Spiders]] refers to the [[Nid]]s that populate the level, [[Clam City]] refers to the [[Clambo]]s that inhabit it, and many other examples. The UK magazine and Japanese guide book probably just assumed that "Nautilus" was the enemy's name because of the level name, since ''DKL'' doesn't have an enemy roll call like the other games do. This makes it more comparable to [[Dorrie]] = "Swimming Beast", [[Klepto]] = "Big Bird", etc. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 14:59, August 20, 2022 (EDT)
:The only other similar situation I can think of is Birdo/Ostro, and that was resolved long before this wiki was founded. I support moving these pages. [[User:Bwburke94|Bwburke94]] ([[User talk:Bwburke94|talk]]) 21:50, August 29, 2022 (EDT)
::The wiki has a pretty good history of correcting major errors by game developers and localizers in documentation. Why do you think this should be a case where we shouldn't correct them, Waluigi Time? {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 23:23, August 29, 2022 (EDT)
:::I'd be curious exactly what sorts of examples there are that would be comparable, since most examples I can think of are based on the material being corrected at other points. Honestly though I don't care enough to be stubborn on this particular issue. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 18:32, September 6, 2022 (EDT)
::::After thinking it over some more I'm going to formally retract my previous opposition here. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:57, September 7, 2022 (EDT)
This whole thing regarding the swapped names kind of reminds me of how [[Gooble]] was named "Swoopin' Stu" by the Prima guide, even though Goobles look nothing like [[Strollin' Stu]]s nor are able to swoop down. I'm still under the impression that [[Winged Strollin' Stu]] was supposed to be called Swoopin' Stu since that name describes the Winged Strollin' Stu much better (it also matches with the hat-stealing [[Swipin' Stu]]). [[User:Arend|Arend]] ([[User talk:Arend|talk]]) 19:00, September 7, 2022 (EDT)

== Swap this article with Balloon Barrage: proposal edition ==
{{SettledTPP}}
{{ProposalOutcome|no consensus|10-9}}
Since the above discussion has reached a stand-still, I think it time to settle this. To sum up, the ''DKL'' manual goofed and mixed up the names for these two levels (plus the clowns who made the 3DS manual didn't correct it). It's clear that they're supposed to switched based on the content of the levels. The only reason this is up for debate at all is the very technical lack of official material to "prove" that they were meant to be swapped. However, the goof is so blatantly obvious that I don't think the mere lack of a smoking gun is enough to justify the status quo. Plus, other languages ''do'' correct the mistake.

'''Proposer''': {{User|7feetunder}}<br>
'''Deadline''': <s>March 16, 2023, 23:59 GMT Extended to March 23, 2023, 23:59 GMT Extended to March 30, 2023, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to April 6, 2023, 23:59 GMT

====Support====
#{{User|7feetunder}} Per proposal.
#{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} Count me in.
#{{User|Shadic 34}} Yeah, it makes sense to swap the names. Per proposal.
#{{User|Glowsquid}} I've argued in favour of quote-unquote fixing minor source material errors and oddities like the incongruously CamelCase names in Super Mario RPG. I don't think pretending the emperor has clothes because nobody has written he has no clothes makes us more serious and encyclopedic - quite the opposite.
#{{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} Per ALL!
#{{User|ShootingStar7X}} Per all.
#{{User|Camwood777}} - We've had the precedent before of going with what the actual intent is worldwide even if the English translation got something wrong before (see: Pale Piranha is on the Piranha Plant article because them being separate from normal Piranha Plants was something strictly in the English release of the game), this is an English-only blunder and was remedied in later translations, therefore, we should probably either fix this too for the sake of consistency.
#{{User|bwburke94}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Mario}} We shouldn't let extremely sloppy arbitrarily-defined "official" corporate narrative get in the way of delivering the best and clearest information to our readers.
<s>#{{User|Spectrogram}} Per proposal, other languages fixing the mistake is a good enough justification.</s>

====Oppose====
#{{user|Koopa con Carne}} nothing against the inferrence itself, because it's clear as broad daylight this whole thing was a misprint that somehow proliferated in the re-release--but these are 2 ''top-priority'' sources that haven't been contradicted by any authority. The wiki has the encyclopedic task of reporting the information as it is from the horse's mouth, and only take compromising stances when there's hard evidence of a different scenario applying (kinda like the whole discussion surrounding the [[Talk:Pale Piranha|Pale Piranha misnomer]]). Also keep in mind that the game's language-of-origin is (British) English, so whatever other foreign-language names employed for these levels are taken to be subordinate to the English material. As it's been said above, you're setting a pretty insidious foundation for, essentially, fanon. And uh, yeah, the strong language used to describe some employees who had no obligation to appease a couple of opinionated nerds on a fansite isn't helping your case either.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per KCC. It's an obvious gaffe, and the translators probably made the right call here. I'm just not a fan of the precedent set by contradicting the only official material released. We should note the oddity, but I don't support any further action.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per all, I'd rather not defy official naming where possible.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all. Mistake or not, we only should take from official material and shouldn't contradict it. If this is really bothering you then just make a note of it in the articles.
#{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
#{{User|SmokedChili}} Per all.
#{{User|Shoey}} Per all.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
#{{User|Somethingone}} Wether or not the source material made a "mistake" is not something we can confidently say when that source material sticks to it years later. Had this been changed in the rerelease, things would be different. Per all.

====Comments====
: It does strike me as weird that the 3DS VC Manual didn't correct this. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 08:58, March 3, 2023 (EST)

@Koopa con Carne: There are more reasons to correct a blatant mistake in an ''instruction manual'' than just to "appease a couple of opinionated nerds on a fansite". It's an obvious goof that does not in any way require a nerd's mind to notice. It would be like if they remade ''SM64DS'' and kept the "King Boo = Big Boo" error - it would bother/confuse a lot more people than just those who edit or read this wiki. Therefore, I do not think it's unfair to criticize them for it, especially when the chances of them seeing this, let alone being genuinely offended by it, are nonexistent.

On a more general note, I don't understand why people are saying this will set a precedent. This is an extremely unique scenario that, as far as I know, has never been repeated. As I said previously, any other attempts to go against game manuals using this to support it would likely be comparing apples to oranges; they'd have to go through a proposal just like this one, and they would be supported or opposed on their own merits, not based on the outcome of this one. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 17:39, March 3, 2023 (EST)
:I don't think the King Boo hypothetical is appropriate here, for two reasons: (1) I realise I'm being anal about the lang-of-origin aspect, which I noticed you disagreed with in the past, but I must state that the Japanese version of SM64DS [https://youtu.be/2eoNjlg0STY?t=3146 correctly identifies the character as "Kingu Teresa"], already rendering "Big Boo" improminent; and (2) outside of that, King Boo has had a vast amount of media and material, in various languages, that identified him as such, validating any fan rectification along the lines of "this character is called such in this game, which is wrong". As even you said, the Construction Site Fight sitch, with the sole two sources repeating the same (alleged, by wiki standards) error, is possibly the only instance of this thing in all of the media that falls under the site's coverage, and should any other identical situations surface, this proposal's outcome would apply to them as well. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 18:15, March 3, 2023 (EST)
@Glowsquid, out of curiosity, can you link to the SMRPG discussion, if there was any? {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 19:17, March 3, 2023 (EST)
:I don't know of any discussion regarding ''SMRPG'' CamelCase, but there ''was'' [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/45#Move Mario Party 3 Duel Maps back to their old capitalization|a successful proposal]] to ignore the ALLCAPS-ification of ''Mario Party 3'' duel boards. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 19:27, March 3, 2023 (EST)
:[[User_talk:LinkTheLefty/Archive_2#SMRPG_moves|It was personal musing to another user]] and not a Serious Policy Edict Everyone Has To Follow. <br> I'm just saying, this isn't deciding some reference material is entirely invalid or fanwanking about in-universe continuity, just making a case for not blindly following an obvious editing error in the source material. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 19:31, March 3, 2023 (EST)
::I mean, those are just cases of unconventional formatting being made conventional, so I can 100% understand the leeway given to those. ALL-CAPS writing is relatively typical in nameplates, labels, headings etc., so yeah, it was silly to have those MP3 subject names lifted in that exact state. "Mr.Kipper" is a result of a technical limitation, and Indo-European grammar dictates having words separated by space, so obviously that couldn't have been carried over like that either. Most importantly though, neither of these things lived on in material made for the games' reissues--and, hey! that's exactly what happened with CSF/BB. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 20:04, March 3, 2023 (EST)
: I would like to point out that we've fixed numerous errors that strategy guides have made such as Sledge Bros. being called Sumo Bros. for three New Super Mario Bros. games and Prima's New Super Mario Bros. 2 Strategy Guide calling Scuttlebugs "Spiders" and Crowbers "Ravens" and that latter one had a proposal that passed unanimously that Crowber was the actual name and not "Raven". Fixing an error that a manual made and the 3DS manual never bothered to correct for some odd reason is right up there with fixing Strategy Guide misnames. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 21:53, March 3, 2023 (EST)
::''Yet again'', those errors you point out were isolated and there's a considerable amount of material to contradict them. Scuttlebugs have been established as such in many games; a minor diversion in a guide is not enough to sway anyone on that. This level we're talking about has been given an English name in a grand total of only ''two'' (2) manuals, and said name is consistent across them. The situations that the precedents discussed on this talk page revolved around are simply not on par with this one. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 22:08, March 3, 2023 (EST)
: My original point was that the manual pretty clearly goofed up on par with many of the Paper Mario translations (e.g. SPM Clefts being called Moon Clefts despite clearly not being on the moon, Crystal Palace being mangled into Goomstar Palace) and they never changed the names for the rerelease despite every opportunity too. Plus, let's not forget that manuals aren't exactly the be-all-end-all for certain sources... [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 22:42, March 3, 2023 (EST)
::I already rebuffed examples such as these ones in my other replies here. TTYD's language-of-origin is ''Japanese''. '''Japanese, not English.''' Unlike Donkey Kong Land, the English names don't necessarily reflect the authorial intent and are easy to second-guess. And even if it's common sense to believe that DKL's level naming was a gaffe, '''there isn't any hard English evidence of this being the case'''. There's a small chance it could have been some sort of inside joke among the game's creative developers. If anyone can contact the manual's author to get explicit confirmation that this was a mistake, I'll change my vote. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 08:35, March 4, 2023 (EST)
I'd like to point out that [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Pakkun_Flower&diff=next&oldid=302652 we've merged the Pakkun Flower from Super Mario Land to Piranha Plant] back in 2007, ''long'' before the game even was rereleased on 3DS (nay, before the 3DS even ''existed''), and thus before its ''American'' manual renamed some of the enemies (I emphasize "American", because from what I can gather, the European manual on 3DS didn't do that). ''Super Mario Land'' notoriously kept ''many'' of the enemy names untranslated. This includes Pakkun Flower, which is quite the gaffe since this was the one enemy that had been a recurring enemy in previous AND following Super Mario games before, and thus already had an established name in English. [[Talk:Pakkun Flower|It was unanimously agreed upon to merge the articles]]. Of course, the American 3DS manual fixed the mistake as well, but like I said, this decision was made before all of that. I know that wiki policies were different 16 years ago, but even if we didn't get a manual with retranslated names, I think it'd be silly to keep Pakkun Flower split as a single Mario Land enemy when all signs point to it being the same Piranha Plant we've seen before.<br>There's also another mistake, where they called the first kingdom the [[Birabuto Kingdom]] instead of Piraputo/Pyrapt Kingdom, for they confused the diacritic signs used in the Japanese language while localizing the names. To be fair, however, we still kept the Birabuto name instead of moving it to Pyrapt. {{User:Arend/sig}} 06:03, March 4, 2023 (EST)
:As has been mentioned repeatedly now, the difference is that Pakkun Flowers are correctly translated as Piranha Plants in many other games, whereas these levels only had their names translated twice and it was done like this both of those times. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 11:33, March 4, 2023 (EST)
::They're not translations. English is the language-of-origin for ''DKL''. The translations (Japanese, Spanish, and probably others not listed) are what ''fixed'' the error and made the ''intended'' names clear, in the same way that ''Partners in Time'' [[Boo Guy]]s are clearly not [[Greaper]]s. I just don't think we should be taking a clear mistake at face value here. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 16:52, March 4, 2023 (EST)
:::Boo Guy's "Reiho" doesn't ''have'' to be a mistake, seeing as how it's a blend of the pretty generic word "yurei" and the Japanese Shy Guy name "Heiho"; basically translatable to "Shy Guy Ghost" or something to the effect of "Shy Ghost". Regardless, the stalemate has made itself apparent. As I said above, it's best if someone can poke Tim Stamper or some other staff member on Twitter/e-mail and get their jurisdiction that, yes, this thing was an honest-to-God error in the English manual or, no, it was some dumb inside joke that made it to print.<br>I would also like to note something that I realise may not have much weight, but can serve as reference: I checked, and all of the supported language settings in the manual of the PAL VC release use the same level order as the English one, the caveat being that the level names remain untranslated from English regardless of the setting. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:42, March 4, 2023 (EST)
::::While I'm willing to accept (though I don't agree with it) the idea that we should stay true to the source material, I don't buy the "it could have been intentional" argument. Sure, it's technically ''possible'', but it's not ''plausible''. [[Jr. Troopa]] mistakenly calling himself "Jr. Koopa" could have been intentional too, but nobody is going to believe that. Even on the off chance that someone on the dev team "confirmed" that it was intentional, it'd be about as credible as an adulterer saying {{wp|It Wasn't Me|"it wasn't me"}} after being caught. I'd just assume they were trolling. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 18:14, March 4, 2023 (EST)
:::My bad regarding the translation thing, I forgot about English being the language of origin. Still, I don't think it particularly changes my argument that these levels were only referred to officially twice and these were the English names used both times. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:22, March 4, 2023 (EST)

@Hewer: Your reason for opposing is because you'd rather not deny official naming. It should be noted that official names tend to change such as half the Yoshi's Island stuff get different names (e.g. Propellor Pirahna instead of Hootie the Blue Fish). [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 07:49, March 4, 2023 (EST)
:So? That doesn't have relevance to this situation until the names of these levels are changed in an official source, which is yet to happen. Hootie the Blue Fish wasn't moved because we guessed that probably wasn't what it was supposed to be called, it was moved because a newer source (Super Smash Bros. Ultimate) referred to it by a different (but still official) name. That's not a comparable situation at all. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 11:33, March 4, 2023 (EST)

Has anyone considered the possibility that these levels may have just been swapped around late in development? If someone can point me in the direction of some decent game enhancer level swap cheat codes, perhaps we can see if the internal order matches up with the in-game one. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:00, March 16, 2023 (EDT)
:Oh, good point! {{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} 12:58, March 16, 2023 (CST)
::Looks like [https://datacrystal.romhacking.net/wiki/Donkey_Kong_Land:Notes#Map_IDs Data Crystal] already documented it. While it still has 4-3 after 4-1, you can see easily that the internal order of the levels in general hardly matches with the final in-game one, so it turned out to be inconclusive. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 20:08, March 16, 2023 (EDT)