Editing Talk:Construction Site Fight
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== Swap this article with Balloon Barrage: proposal edition == | == Swap this article with Balloon Barrage: proposal edition == | ||
{{ | {{TPP}} | ||
Since the above discussion has reached a stand-still, I think it time to settle this. To sum up, the ''DKL'' manual goofed and mixed up the names for these two levels (plus the clowns who made the 3DS manual didn't correct it). It's clear that they're supposed to switched based on the content of the levels. The only reason this is up for debate at all is the very technical lack of official material to "prove" that they were meant to be swapped. However, the goof is so blatantly obvious that I don't think the mere lack of a smoking gun is enough to justify the status quo. Plus, other languages ''do'' correct the mistake. | Since the above discussion has reached a stand-still, I think it time to settle this. To sum up, the ''DKL'' manual goofed and mixed up the names for these two levels (plus the clowns who made the 3DS manual didn't correct it). It's clear that they're supposed to switched based on the content of the levels. The only reason this is up for debate at all is the very technical lack of official material to "prove" that they were meant to be swapped. However, the goof is so blatantly obvious that I don't think the mere lack of a smoking gun is enough to justify the status quo. Plus, other languages ''do'' correct the mistake. | ||
'''Proposer''': {{User|7feetunder}}<br> | '''Proposer''': {{User|7feetunder}}<br> | ||
'''Deadline''': | '''Deadline''': March 16, 2023, 23:59 GMT | ||
====Support==== | ====Support==== | ||
#{{User|7feetunder}} Per proposal. | #{{User|7feetunder}} Per proposal. | ||
#{{User|Spectrogram}} Per proposal, other languages fixing the mistake is a good enough justification. | |||
#{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} Count me in. | #{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} Count me in. | ||
#{{User|Shadic 34}} Yeah, it makes sense to swap the names. Per proposal. | #{{User|Shadic 34}} Yeah, it makes sense to swap the names. Per proposal. | ||
#{{User|Glowsquid}} I've argued in favour of quote-unquote fixing minor source material errors and oddities like the incongruously CamelCase names in Super Mario RPG. I don't think pretending the emperor has clothes because nobody has written he has no clothes makes us more serious and encyclopedic - quite the opposite. | #{{User|Glowsquid}} I've argued in favour of quote-unquote fixing minor source material errors and oddities like the incongruously CamelCase names in Super Mario RPG. I don't think pretending the emperor has clothes because nobody has written he has no clothes makes us more serious and encyclopedic - quite the opposite. | ||
====Oppose==== | ====Oppose==== | ||
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#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per KCC. It's an obvious gaffe, and the translators probably made the right call here. I'm just not a fan of the precedent set by contradicting the only official material released. We should note the oddity, but I don't support any further action. | #{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per KCC. It's an obvious gaffe, and the translators probably made the right call here. I'm just not a fan of the precedent set by contradicting the only official material released. We should note the oddity, but I don't support any further action. | ||
#{{User|Hewer}} Per all, I'd rather not defy official naming where possible. | #{{User|Hewer}} Per all, I'd rather not defy official naming where possible. | ||
====Comments==== | ====Comments==== | ||
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::''Yet again'', those errors you point out were isolated and there's a considerable amount of material to contradict them. Scuttlebugs have been established as such in many games; a minor diversion in a guide is not enough to sway anyone on that. This level we're talking about has been given an English name in a grand total of only ''two'' (2) manuals, and said name is consistent across them. The situations that the precedents discussed on this talk page revolved around are simply not on par with this one. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 22:08, March 3, 2023 (EST) | ::''Yet again'', those errors you point out were isolated and there's a considerable amount of material to contradict them. Scuttlebugs have been established as such in many games; a minor diversion in a guide is not enough to sway anyone on that. This level we're talking about has been given an English name in a grand total of only ''two'' (2) manuals, and said name is consistent across them. The situations that the precedents discussed on this talk page revolved around are simply not on par with this one. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 22:08, March 3, 2023 (EST) | ||
: My original point was that the manual pretty clearly goofed up on par with many of the Paper Mario translations (e.g. SPM Clefts being called Moon Clefts despite clearly not being on the moon, Crystal Palace being mangled into Goomstar Palace) and they never changed the names for the rerelease despite every opportunity too. Plus, let's not forget that manuals aren't exactly the be-all-end-all for certain sources... [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 22:42, March 3, 2023 (EST) | : My original point was that the manual pretty clearly goofed up on par with many of the Paper Mario translations (e.g. SPM Clefts being called Moon Clefts despite clearly not being on the moon, Crystal Palace being mangled into Goomstar Palace) and they never changed the names for the rerelease despite every opportunity too. Plus, let's not forget that manuals aren't exactly the be-all-end-all for certain sources... [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 22:42, March 3, 2023 (EST) | ||
::I already rebuffed examples such as these ones in my other replies here. TTYD's language-of-origin is ''Japanese''. '''Japanese, not English.''' Unlike Donkey Kong Land, the English names don't necessarily reflect the authorial intent and are easy to second-guess. And even if it's common sense to believe that DKL's level naming was a gaffe, '''there isn't any hard English evidence of this being the case'''. There's a small chance it could have been some sort of inside joke among the game's creative developers. If anyone can contact the manual's author to get explicit confirmation that this was a mistake, I'll change my vote. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 08:35, March 4, 2023 (EST) | ::I already rebuffed examples such as these ones in my other replies here. TTYD's language-of-origin is ''Japanese''. '''Japanese, not English.''' Unlike Donkey Kong Land, the English names don't necessarily reflect the authorial intent and are easy to second-guess. And even if it's common sense to believe that DKL's level naming was a gaffe, '''there isn't any hard English evidence of this being the case'''. There's a small chance it could have been some sort of inside joke among the game's creative developers, a la NES ''Castlevania''{{'}}s credits. If anyone can contact the manual's author to get explicit confirmation that this was a mistake, I'll change my vote. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 08:35, March 4, 2023 (EST) | ||
I'd like to point out that [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Pakkun_Flower&diff=next&oldid=302652 we've merged the Pakkun Flower from Super Mario Land to Piranha Plant] back in 2007, ''long'' before the game even was rereleased on 3DS (nay, before the 3DS even ''existed''), and thus before its ''American'' manual renamed some of the enemies (I emphasize "American", because from what I can gather, the European manual on 3DS didn't do that). ''Super Mario Land'' notoriously kept ''many'' of the enemy names untranslated. This includes Pakkun Flower, which is quite the gaffe since this was the one enemy that had been a recurring enemy in previous AND following Super Mario games before, and thus already had an established name in English. [[Talk:Pakkun Flower|It was unanimously agreed upon to merge the articles]]. Of course, the American 3DS manual fixed the mistake as well, but like I said, this decision was made before all of that. I know that wiki policies were different 16 years ago, but even if we didn't get a manual with retranslated names, I think it'd be silly to keep Pakkun Flower split as a single Mario Land enemy when all signs point to it being the same Piranha Plant we've seen before.<br>There's also another mistake, where they called the first kingdom the [[Birabuto Kingdom]] instead of Piraputo/Pyrapt Kingdom, for they confused the diacritic signs used in the Japanese language while localizing the names. To be fair, however, we still kept the Birabuto name instead of moving it to Pyrapt. {{User:Arend/sig}} 06:03, March 4, 2023 (EST) | I'd like to point out that [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Pakkun_Flower&diff=next&oldid=302652 we've merged the Pakkun Flower from Super Mario Land to Piranha Plant] back in 2007, ''long'' before the game even was rereleased on 3DS (nay, before the 3DS even ''existed''), and thus before its ''American'' manual renamed some of the enemies (I emphasize "American", because from what I can gather, the European manual on 3DS didn't do that). ''Super Mario Land'' notoriously kept ''many'' of the enemy names untranslated. This includes Pakkun Flower, which is quite the gaffe since this was the one enemy that had been a recurring enemy in previous AND following Super Mario games before, and thus already had an established name in English. [[Talk:Pakkun Flower|It was unanimously agreed upon to merge the articles]]. Of course, the American 3DS manual fixed the mistake as well, but like I said, this decision was made before all of that. I know that wiki policies were different 16 years ago, but even if we didn't get a manual with retranslated names, I think it'd be silly to keep Pakkun Flower split as a single Mario Land enemy when all signs point to it being the same Piranha Plant we've seen before.<br>There's also another mistake, where they called the first kingdom the [[Birabuto Kingdom]] instead of Piraputo/Pyrapt Kingdom, for they confused the diacritic signs used in the Japanese language while localizing the names. To be fair, however, we still kept the Birabuto name instead of moving it to Pyrapt. {{User:Arend/sig}} 06:03, March 4, 2023 (EST) | ||
@Hewer: Your reason for opposing is because you'd rather not deny official naming. It should be noted that official names tend to change such as half the Yoshi's Island stuff get different names (e.g. Propellor Pirahna instead of Hootie the Blue Fish). [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 07:49, March 4, 2023 (EST) | @Hewer: Your reason for opposing is because you'd rather not deny official naming. It should be noted that official names tend to change such as half the Yoshi's Island stuff get different names (e.g. Propellor Pirahna instead of Hootie the Blue Fish). [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 07:49, March 4, 2023 (EST) | ||