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| #{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all. | | #{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all. |
| #{{User|Astro-Lanceur}}Keep it | | #{{User|Astro-Lanceur}}Keep it |
| | #{{User|Mario4Ever}} Per all. |
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| ====It only counts as a cameo (and therefore, delete the page)==== | | ====It only counts as a cameo (and therefore, delete the page)==== |
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Current time:
Sunday, May 12th, 00:56 GMT
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Proposals can be new features (such as an extension), the removal of previously-added features that have tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action is taken.
- "Vote" periods last for one week.
- Any user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so (not, e.g., "I like this idea!").
- All proposals must be approved by a majority of voters, including proposals with more than two options.
- For past proposals, see the proposal archive and the talk page proposal archive.
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A proposal section works like a discussion page: comments are brought up and replied to using indents (colons, such as : or ::::) and all edits are signed using the code {{User|User name}}.
How to
Rules
- If users have an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with the other users, who will then vote about whether or not they think the idea should be used. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and writing guidelines. Proposals must include a link to the draft page. Any pages that would be largely affected by the proposal should be marked with {{proposal notice}}.
- Only registered, autoconfirmed users can create, comment in, or vote on proposals and talk page proposals. Users may vote for more than one option on proposals with more than two choices.
- Proposals end at the end of the day (23:59) one week after voting starts, except for writing guidelines and talk page proposals, which run for two weeks (all times GMT).
- For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is one week later on Monday, August 8, at 23:59 GMT.
- Every vote should have a strong, sensible reason accompanying it. Agreeing with a previously mentioned reason given by another user is accepted (including "per" votes), but tangential comments, heavy sarcasm, and other misleading or irrelevant quips are just as invalid as providing no reason at all.
- Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. Voters can remove or rewrite their own vote at any time, but the final decision to remove another user's vote lies solely with the administrators.
- Users can also use the comments section to bring up any concerns or mistakes in regards to the proposal itself. In such cases, it's important the proposer addresses any concerns raised as soon as possible. Even if the supporting side might be winning by a wide margin, that should be no reason for such questions to be left unanswered. They may point out any missing details that might have been overlooked by the proposer, so it's a good idea as the proposer to check them frequently to achieve the most accurate outcome possible.
- If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(banned)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
- No proposal can overturn the decision of a previous proposal that is less than 4 weeks (28 days) old.
- Any proposal where none of the options have at least four votes will be extended for another week. If after three extensions, no options have at least four votes, the proposal will be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
- All proposals that end up in a tie will be extended for another week. Proposals with more than two options must also be extended another week if any single option does not have a majority support: i.e. more than half of the total number of voters must appear in a single voting option, rather than one option simply having more votes than the other options.
- If a proposal with only two voting options has more than ten votes, it can only pass or fail by a margin of three votes, otherwise the deadline will be extended for another week as if no majority was reached at all.
- Proposals can only be extended up to three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, the proposal fails and can only be re-proposed after four weeks, at the earliest.
- All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
- If the administrators deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to remove it at any time.
- Proposals can only be rewritten or deleted by their proposer within the first three days of their creation (six days for talk page proposals). However, proposers can request that their proposal be deleted by an administrator at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that canceled proposals must also be archived.
- Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting or otherwise fixing up pages. To organize efforts about improving articles on neglected or completely missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
- Proposals cannot be made about promotions and demotions. Users can only be promoted and demoted by the will of the administration.
- No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.
- Proposals must have a status quo option (e.g. Oppose, Do nothing) unless the status quo itself violates policy.
Basic proposal and support/oppose format
This is an example of what your proposal must look like, if you want it to be acknowledged. If you are inexperienced or unsure how to set up this format, simply copy the following and paste it into the fitting section. Then replace the [subject] - variables with information to customize your proposal, so it says what you wish. If you insert the information, be sure to replace the whole variable including the squared brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information", not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but what each voting section is supporting must be clearly defined. Such options should also be kept to a minimum, and if something comes up in the comments, the proposal can be amended as necessary.
===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]
'''Proposer''': {{User|[enter your username here]}}<br>
'''Deadline''': [insert a deadline here, 7 days after the proposal was created (14 for writing guidelines and talk page proposals), at 23:59 GMT, in the format: "May 12, 2024, 23:59 GMT"]
====Support====
#{{User|[enter your username here]}} [make a statement indicating that you support your proposal]
====Oppose====
====Comments====
Users will now be able to vote on your proposal, until the set deadline is reached. Remember, you are a user as well, so you can vote on your own proposal just like the others.
To support, or oppose, just insert "#{{User|[add your username here]}}" at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's proposal. If you are voting on your own proposal, you can just say "Per my proposal".
Talk page proposals
All proposals dealing with a single article or a specific group of articles are held on the talk page of one of the articles in question. Proposals dealing with massive amounts of splits, merges or deletions across the wiki should still be held on this page.
- For a list of all settled talk page proposals, see MarioWiki:Proposals/TPP archive and Category:Settled talk page proposals.
Rules
- All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom) using {{TPPDiscuss}}. Include a brief description of the proposal while also mentioning any pages affected by it, a link to the talk page housing the discussion, and the deadline. If the proposal involves a page that is not yet made, use {{fake link}} to communicate its title in the description. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links. Place {{TPP}} under the section's header, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with {{SettledTPP}}.
- All rules for talk page proposals are the same as mainspace proposals (see the "How to" section above), with the exceptions made by Rules 3 and 4 as follows:
- Voting in talk page proposals will be open for two weeks, not one (all times GMT).
- For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, it ends two weeks later on Monday, August 15, 2011, at 23:59 GMT.
- The talk page proposal must pertain to the article it is posted on.
- When a talk page proposal passes, it should be removed from this list and included in the list under the "Unimplemented proposals" section until the proposed changes have been enacted.
List of ongoing talk page proposals
- In Template:Species infobox, expand "Relatives" guidelines to include variant-type relationships with significant differences between species (discuss) Deadline: May 12, 2024, 23:59 GMT
- Split Speed Mario Bros. from Ultimate NES Remix (discuss) Deadline: May 12, 2024, 23:59 GMT
- Merge Arrow Switch with gravity switch (discuss) Deadline: May 13, 2024, 23:59 GMT
- Re-merge Pixels with List of references in film (discuss) Deadline: May 13, 2024, 23:59 GMT
- Rename Moneybags to Moneybag (enemy) (discuss) Deadline: May 13, 2024, 23:59 GMT
- Split "Team Dinosaur" from The Dinosaurs (discuss) Deadline: May 15, 2024, 23:59 GMT
- Merge Hat trampoline (Cascade Kingdom) to Trampoline (discuss) Deadline: May 15th, 2024, 23:59 GMT
- Delete Memory Card (discuss) Deadline: May 23, 2024, 23:59 GMT
Unimplemented proposals
Proposals
- ^Note: This has yet to be done with with several non–Super Mario fighters who still have their own page; namely, Banjo, Fox, Inkling, Isabelle, Kirby, Link, Mega Man, Pac-Man, R.O.B., Sonic, and Villager.
Talk page proposals
List of talk page proposals
Proposals that have not been implemented
| #
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Proposal
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User
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Date
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| 1
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Split Spoing, Sprangler and Klamber from Scuttle Bug
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Vommack (talk)
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November 3, 2012
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| 2
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Create boss level articles for Donkey Kong Country and Donkey Kong Land series
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Aokage (talk)
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January 3, 2015
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| 3
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Create a template for the Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door badge drop rates
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Lord Bowser (talk)
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August 17, 2016
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| 4
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Create a Mini article
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Wildgoosespeeder (talk)
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August 20, 2016
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| 5
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Split all remaining courts and boards from their parent articles
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NSY (talk)
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September 25, 2016
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| 6
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Clean up species categories to only include non-hostile species
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Niiue (talk)
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August 8, 2017
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| 7
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Clean up Category:Artifacts
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Niiue (talk)
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August 22, 2017
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| 8
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Trim down Category:Fire Creatures and Category:Ice Creatures
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Doc von Schmeltwick (talk)
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September 7, 2017
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| 9
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Create an article on Arcade Archives
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Camwood777 (talk)
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September 23, 2017
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| 10
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Split all Starbeans Cafe items from the Starbeans Cafe article
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Baby Luigi (talk)
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September 30, 2017
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| 11
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Reorganize the board table in Mario Party: Island Tour
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Baby Luigi (talk)
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December 15, 2017
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| 12
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Give the Nintendo Switch buttons in Template:Button better color resolution
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Eldritchdraaks (talk)
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December 18, 2017
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| 13
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Expand the Behemoth King article
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Owencrazyboy9 (talk)
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December 23, 2017
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| 14
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Create articles on the Remix 10 secret courses in Super Mario Run
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Time Turner (talk)
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December 26, 2017
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| 15
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Add anchor links to Power Moon lists
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Super Radio (talk)
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December 31, 2017
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| 16
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Use points to show the statistics in the main pages of Mario Kart 7, Mario Kart 8 and Mario Kart 8 Deluxe
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Mister Wu (talk)
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January 2, 2018
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Writing guidelines
None at the moment.
New features
Create a page for Luigi's Mansion (series)
I am honestly surprised that this page does not exist, as I believe it once did. In short, there are three installments to this series: Luigi's Mansion, Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon, and Luigi's Mansion Arcade. Though it might seem to some that only three games won't be enough to warrant a series page, keep in mind the DK series and the Mario Baseball series pages. There is plenty of information for this page, as we have a main protagonist (Luigi) and many other supporting characters and reoccurring enemies such as King Boo and Boos. It only seems logical to create a page for a series within the Mario franchise that features two games for consoles and one arcade game.
Proposer: DKPetey99 (talk)
Deadline: January 9, 2018 23:59 GMT
Support
- DKPetey99 (talk) Per my proposal.
- Astro-Lanceur (talk) Good Idea! :P
- Alex95 (talk) - A series page did exist before, but it was deleted back in 2011. That was before the arcade title, however, so I don't see a reason to not make one now.
- Ultimate Mr. L (talk) Per proposal.
- TheFlameChomp (talk) Per proposal. Since other similar series pages exist, I don't see an issue with creating this one.
- LudwigVon (talk) Per proposal.
- Lcrossmk8 (talk) OH YEAH! I KNEW this was supposed to be a thing. As a person whose favorite video-game character is the man in green, Mr. Number Two, I think this proposal is just great. After all, don't we hear people talk about the Luigi's Mansion games as a series? I think we're on a roll, boys. Per proposal. This thing should have been created when Dark Moon was released.
- Supermariofan67 (talk) Per all.
- Toadette the Achiever (talk) If we have articles on series with only two games, then clearly this subject merits an article. Per all.
- YoshiFlutterJump (talk) Per all. It may seem strange to have an article on a two-game series. However, this one has three.
- Niiue (talk) Per all.
Oppose
Is there a policy page/section about what qualifies as a series and allow for a series article? --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) (Stats - Contribs) 15:00, 2 January 2018 (EST)
- Not finding one, but I think the unspoken rule is about three games? I remember reading that somewhere.
15:13, 2 January 2018 (EST)
- Thought there would be so that way proposals don't need to be created. Would the admins be in favor of a policy to bypass the need for a proposal? I wouldn't know how to define the prerequisites. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) (Stats - Contribs) 17:38, 2 January 2018 (EST)
- This page was previously deleted, so I understand the need for this proposal. But, imo, a policy for it doesn't seem necessary. As long as there is more than one game in the same series and a decent amount of information can be written, then proposals shouldn't be necessary either. Something can probably be added to MarioWiki:Glossary though. 17:50, 2 January 2018 (EST)
- Just thought of something else. Series vs. Franchise. We got both those types of pages that are similar-ish in concept. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) (Stats - Contribs) 23:24, 2 January 2018 (EST)
2011 was even before Dark Moon was released so I see why the original page was deleted. 
DKPetey99TCE
- Whoop, forgot when Dark Moon was released. That makes the original page even more pointless :P 15:19, 2 January 2018 (EST)
Lcrossmk8: I do not think you can just support this proposal just because you like Luigi. Please, look rule #4.--
(TALK) 16:40, 2 January 2018 (EST)
- I'm not supporting the proposal just because I like Luigi. I agree with all the other reasons the proposal is on here, and that's why I voted for it. Lcrossmk8 (talk) 16:42, 2 January 2018 (EST)
- You just say in your reason for voting: "As a person whose favorite video-game character is the man in green, Mr. Number Two, I think this proposal is just great." This is not a valid reason to support a proposal. Rule #4 says: "irrelevant quips or comments are just as invalid as providing no reason at all. But now, I saw you put "Per proposal." so your vote is now valid."--(TALK) 16:50, 2 January 2018 (EST)
Removals
None at the moment.
Changes
None at the moment.
Miscellaneous
What is Alleyway?
Once upon a time, a proposal deemed that Alleyway was irrelevant to the Super Mario Wiki, and should therefore be deleted... except that was four years ago, and the article still remains. Now it just sits in limbo or something, and that's not satisfying to me. Frankly, I consider this to be a clear-cut case: the game itself shows Mario to be the player character (as well as the life counter). As also seen in the box cover, he's the one piloting the paddle. The rest of the game isn't bereft of Mario images either, as every single bonus stage features something from the franchise to destroy. And "it doesn't play like a Mario game" isn't particularly valid in a franchise that spans so many different genres, and especially not when the wiki already covers Pinball and Golf (really, if you're against Alleyway on the wiki, you should also explain what you think about this game). Heck, Mario's Picross shows that the franchise is no stranger to seemingly esoteric playstyles. How can Mario be cameoing in this game when he is the one and only playable character?
With all of this in mind, there are two options: either Alleyway is properly a member of the Mario franchise, in which case the article would be kept, or it only features cameos from the franchise, in which case the article would be merged to List of Mario references in Nintendo video games.
Proposer: Time Turner (talk)
Deadline: January 11, 2018, 23:59 GMT
It is a part of the franchise (and therefore, keep the article)
- Time Turner (talk) Per proposal.
- Alex95 (talk) - Having played Alleyway, I noticed there are too many Mario things for it to not be a Mario game. Mario paddles the paddles, there are brick structures in the shape of various Mario characters. So, yeah, per proposal.
- Yoshi the SSM (talk) This is even more clear than Tetris DS. Per all.
- Ultimate Mr. L (talk) Per all.
- Glowsquid (talk) was wrong.
- Chester Alan Arthur (talk) Mario is literally the playable character it's more then a simple cameo.
- Toadette the Achiever (talk) It's clearly a guest appearance at the very least, because not only is Mario the sole playable character, there are also countless patterns that pertain to Mario. Wildgoosespeeder's vote comment is also a meaningless technicality (no offense), so per all.
- Niiue (talk) Per all.
- TheFlameChomp (talk) Per all.
- Astro-Lanceur (talk)Keep it
- Mario4Ever (talk) Per all.
It only counts as a cameo (and therefore, delete the page)
- Wildgoosespeeder (talk) This option is a bit misleading because if you read the proposal, this option is for merging, not deleting. Merge with references, just like every other time I voted in similar proposals. It feels weird to give it the same attention as say Super Mario Land and Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins because of the core gameplay. It's a Breakout clone, not its own game series. Some videos why Mario is in these games: [1] [2] Alleyway is noteworthy, but not as a separate article.
Since I've been looking back at that proposal, might as well start a tangentially related discussion: what's the difference between Pushmo and Rhythm Heaven Megamix? Hello, I'm Time Turner. 21:55, 4 January 2018 (EST)
@Wildgoosespeeder: I literally make it a point in the proposal to talk about how the gameplay means nothing. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 22:02, 4 January 2018 (EST)
- Also, in a series like Mario, "canon" means nothing either. This isn't a franchise like Zelda or Metroid where some things are "canon" and others aren't. The rule of making Mario games is "We have a bunch of concepts and characters, let's do something fun with them." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:11, 4 January 2018 (EST)
- Case in point: that's literally policy. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 22:12, 4 January 2018 (EST)
- Gameplay should mean everything to article creation because simply slapping Mario on any game doesn't make it a Mario game right away. Let's debate the game's merits, not arbitrary rules you define. That's my argument with every similar proposal I voted on. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) (Stats - Contribs) 22:24, 4 January 2018 (EST)
- So Mario's Picross isn't a Mario game? Hello, I'm Time Turner. 22:26, 4 January 2018 (EST)
- Let's focus on Alleyway instead of changing the subject. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) (Stats - Contribs) 22:27, 4 January 2018 (EST)
- It's entirely relevant. You're talking about how gameplay defines a Mario game, and I'm providing an example of a game that clearly does not fit the standard Mario mold. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 22:29, 4 January 2018 (EST)
- I insist we keep talking about Alleyway, since this is a proposal about it. If you created a proposal to talk about all the games that are questionable relating to policy and List of Mario references in Nintendo video games, then we can discuss that game further. If you have no other arguments for my oppose vote, then we are done here. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) (Stats - Contribs) 22:35, 4 January 2018 (EST)
- For one thing, you certainly seemed fine discussing other games, but that's neither here nor there. What's most important is that you're adamant about the core gameplay of the Mario franchise, but you're completely unwilling to discuss it. This is relevant when you're using it as a reason in your vote. Don't just brush it aside. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 22:38, 4 January 2018 (EST)
- I realized that being so easily derailed didn't help my argument for my oppose vote last time. My mistake. This time, I'll try to be more focused on the proposal's topic of What is Alleyway, and for future proposals in general. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) (Stats - Contribs) 22:48, 4 January 2018 (EST)
- Please don't brush aside my query and tell me how the "core gameplay" denies Alleyway from being allowed an article while other games are perfectly fine. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 22:50, 4 January 2018 (EST)
- The first game was Breakout, which was a hit that inspired clones, which are very common. We got DX-Ball, Arkanoid, and MegaBall for just noteworthy ones and also come to mind. There's many more. I've come across a lot of Breakout clone shovelware on Steam and the Google Play store. Also, I said earlier that simply slapping Mario on any game doesn't make it a Mario game right away. Also, the videos in my vote show how Mario ended up in games like that. As far as I am concerned, it's a reference, probably to have driven the sale of Alleyway (brand recognition) more than to be considered a Mario game. It's not an uncommon business tactic either. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) (Stats - Contribs) 23:03, 4 January 2018 (EST)
- Why does it matter how Mario ended up in the game? How does the historical context change anything about the game itself? Hello, I'm Time Turner. 23:20, 4 January 2018 (EST)
- You are only looking at his physical appearance in the game. I am looking at more than that, such as gameplay, historical significance, etc. to decide if the game deserves an article or be merged with that one page. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) (Stats - Contribs) 23:25, 4 January 2018 (EST)
- Again, why does that matter? Hello, I'm Time Turner. 23:25, 4 January 2018 (EST)
- Those factors all contributed to the game's production and market performance. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) (Stats - Contribs) 23:37, 4 January 2018 (EST)
- ...Why is that relevant when it comes to this matter? Hello, I'm Time Turner. 23:38, 4 January 2018 (EST)
- I already told you, but you refuse to accept my answer. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) (Stats - Contribs) 23:41, 4 January 2018 (EST)
- You haven't actually explained why the game's context matters in the slightest. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 23:42, 4 January 2018 (EST)
- Yes I have. Reread my comments. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) (Stats - Contribs) 23:48, 4 January 2018 (EST)
- "Because it's a clone." So? How about how Donkey Kong relates to Popeye and how Super Mario Bros. relates to Pac-Land? "Breakout clone" is a bit of a misnomer, as it's a genre. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:12, 5 January 2018 (EST)
- Popeye, that is based on the love triangle trope. We got two men in love with a woman: The brutish fiend (Bluto and Donkey Kong) vs. the hero (Popeye and Mario) and their love interest (Olive and Pauline). So what you are saying because the themes are similar, that means one is a clone of another? No. Breakout clone is not a genre. The genre you are looking for is brick breaker, or something like that. That would be like calling Space Invaders or Galaga a genre for all shoot 'em ups. It's just become a term synonymous with that genre, so I can understand the confusion. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) (Stats - Contribs) 00:37, 5 January 2018 (EST)
- "A Breakout Clone is a sub-class of the 'ball-and-bat' genre" according to this. Making it less of a "clone" deal and more of a specific type of game, which there's only so much you can do with, although the aforementioned Arkanoid proved that it really can be more than a clone, what with fighting a giant holographic red Moai with the same name as Homer Simpson's "catchphrase." So yes, it's still a misleading term, and not a good reason to say it doesn't belong here. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:26, 5 January 2018 (EST)
- The proposer is not wanting to delete the entire contents of the article for the oppose option. Just merge with List of Mario references in Nintendo video games. No, don't delete contents of the article. Just merge contents and make the title a redirect or something. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) (Stats - Contribs) 01:29, 5 January 2018 (EST)
- Except there'd be no neat way to include all of the information on the page into the article. There would definitely be something lost in the transition. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 01:32, 5 January 2018 (EST)
- We cover where the bonus levels are featuring Mario references, we got pictures (incomplete), we got Mario getting into the spaceship, the cover artwork, and the Wikipedia link. What else is there to cover? Everything else is just filler not related to Mario. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) (Stats - Contribs) 01:35, 5 January 2018 (EST)
- I mean, look at any independent page, then look at the sections, and you'll see plenty that isn't there, like an infobox that consolidates information, an intro, subpages, critical reception and media sections, and I could go on if you'd like. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 11:05, 5 January 2018 (EST)
- But it's not a reference. As shown on the cover art, Mario's piloting the ship. ie, it's a similar situation to Famicom Grand Prix II: 3D Hot Rally, where in-game, Mario isn't seen within the vehicle, but he officially is there. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:36, 5 January 2018 (EST)
- I think I already covered that part of the argument above why it is a reference. Also, we are sticking strictly with Alleyway this time. No other games we are currently covering on the wiki should be discussed at this time. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) (Stats - Contribs) 01:38, 5 January 2018 (EST)
- Stop trying to railroad the conversation. Articles on the wiki serve as examples of what to do. Don't treat this as if we're arguing in a vacuum. And no, all you've done is talk about how Mario made lots of miscellaneous appearances. That does not demonstrate how the sole playable character is only making a cameo. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 01:42, 5 January 2018 (EST)
- Don't "we're sticking solely with Alleyway" me, I'm showing an example of the same situation to support my point, while your saying that I shouldn't comes off as whining about how I have supporting evidence and you don't. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:02, 5 January 2018 (EST)
- Careful, Doc. Keep it civil.
Ultimate Mr. L (Talk-Contribs-Stats) 09:48, 5 January 2018 (EST)
- Ultimate Mr. L (talk) is right. I never said or implied anything of the sort Doc von Schmeltwick (talk). Time Turner (talk), it's clear you don't want to see my arguments as supporting evidence for Mario being a cameo. However, I see your point that because there is physical appearance of the man himself, that means it is good enough justification for being a separate article. I just don't think that is good enough. I also see this argument going nowhere. Best to stop this because we have made our points. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) (Stats - Contribs) 10:52, 5 January 2018 (EST)
- No, seriously, you're missing a step. "Mario made a lot of random appearances" is not logically followed by "therefore, he is making a cameo in this game". I've read your argument plenty enough; don't just accuse me of ignoring them. If context mattered as much as you're saying, Super Mario Bros. 2 wouldn't even be on this wiki. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 11:01, 5 January 2018 (EST)
- Nope, never implied you were ignoring my comments. I'm saying you disagree with me, implying you didn't ignore my comments. Anyways, what missing step are you talking about? --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) (Stats - Contribs) 11:05, 5 January 2018 (EST)
- You're supposed to be telling me that. The premise that you've set up isn't immediately demonstrative of the argument you're trying to make, and that's why I've been saying that you've yet to explain to me how one necessarily leads to the latter. I'll stand by Super Mario Bros. 2 as a counterexample. Also, "you don't want to see my arguments" implies that I'm ignoring them, but regardless. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 11:12, 5 January 2018 (EST)
- I guess my phrasing didn't translate well, not to another language, but the intentions behind it because I really didn't intend any malice. I just should have said you disagreed with me. As for the missing step, I thought it would have been obvious that the random appearances implies the developers of those games wanted Mario in their games as a cameo, likely to help drive sales, which I said earlier. It's not like they were building the game with Mario in mind but rather using Mario for brand recognition. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) (Stats - Contribs) 11:31, 5 January 2018 (EST)
- Just to make sure we're on the same page, how do you define a "cameo"? Because the one and only playable character would never be a cameo for me no matter how you defined it. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 11:46, 5 January 2018 (EST)
- Referential, that's how I define cameo. Alleyway is referencing the Mario (series), which is what List of Mario references in Nintendo video games is. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) (Stats - Contribs) 12:13, 5 January 2018 (EST)
- Why would the company want to add Mario to a game when (if it counts as a Mario game) it is their first Mario game? And should Wario's Woods not be counted in the Wario series? Should we keep Mario Paint? DO NOT say that these aren't what we should talk about. They were made by the same company that made this game, only later did they made the others and they all were even made before they made Paper Mario.
Yoshi the SSM (talk) 11:49, 5 January 2018 (EST)
- The first problem I see is "Mario game". We are just declaring it is a Mario game right off the bat without analyzing it first. I don't think this was the original intent behind Alleyway. It's a game that features Mario, but not a "Mario game" per se. I guess what I am saying is what defines a "Mario game" is how much does it influence the game's core mechanics? Alleyway, Mario is there and he breaks brick patterns in bonus rounds that represent things found in Super Mario Bros.. Not very Mario like. Since my more focused arguments of staying strictly with Alleyway are pretty much done and I feel I got my point across better than the last proposal, Mario Paint, it's the overall presentation and impact it had on future games, such as Super Mario Maker, Mario Artist, and WarioWare: D.I.Y.. When was the last time you saw an Alleyway reference in a later title? Wario's Woods, I feel that is an argument for a future proposal, similar to that of Yoshi's Cookie and Yoshi. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) (Stats - Contribs) 12:13, 5 January 2018 (EST)
- that's like saying Mario's Early Years isn't a mario game because nobody talks about it Hello, I'm Time Turner. 12:18, 5 January 2018 (EST)
- True. This is why I wanted to stay strictly with Alleyway to begin with. Not everything will fit in neat categories. Some games blur the line. In the case of Alleyway, when you take a deeper look, it's not a "Mario game" but rather "a game that features Mario" or just references things from Super Mario Bros. and should be merged. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) (Stats - Contribs) 12:22, 5 January 2018 (EST)
- Wait, you can't just introduce a definition like that but only apply it selectively. That's completely arbitrary. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 12:34, 5 January 2018 (EST)
- Just like it's arbitrary to give some games article treatment and others to be put in a list? --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) (Stats - Contribs) 12:37, 5 January 2018 (EST)
- (I am put something in ()s for a good reason.) Anyways. Why would the company add these "cameos" to this game when it was 3 years before Mario Paint? Yoshi the SSM (talk) 12:31, 5 January 2018 (EST)
- I don't understand how Mario Paint is relevant to this particular question. I already said the cameos are put in because it was likely for brand recognition to drive sales, maybe through association. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) (Stats - Contribs) 12:36, 5 January 2018 (EST)
- Why would they do that when the company hasn't done anything Mario related before? And Mario Paint is Intelligent Systems' first game mentioned on its article, which Alleyway would be before it on the same list. Yoshi the SSM (talk) 12:42, 5 January 2018 (EST)
- Edit: Wait there is Tennis, but that's the only game before Alleyway to have Mario (and Tennis was their first game ever). But, why would they have Mario as the only playable character when they haven't before? Yoshi the SSM (talk) 12:46, 5 January 2018 (EST)
- At the time, Mario was the biggest icon in gaming. It makes business sense to ask permission from Nintendo to use Mario's likeness to help drive sales to an otherwise likely obscure title by an otherwise likely obscure company. We now know Intelligent Systems as the masterminds behind the Paper Mario (series) and is a loved company for it, but it wasn't like that pre-Paper Mario, or at least I don't think so. I know that was the case for HAL Laboratory before Super Smash Bros.. --Wildgoosespeeder (talk) (Stats - Contribs) 12:51, 5 January 2018 (EST)
- You can clearly see that just by even looking at all Mario games before Paper Mario (whether or not including this). Yoshi the SSM (talk) 13:01, 5 January 2018 (EST)
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