Category talk:Thieves

Do we need this?

Is there a purpose to this category? It seems like Category:Characters who have kissed Mario all over again.
Ultimate Mr. L (Talk-Contribs-Stats) 19:35, 22 October 2017 (EDT)

It is not, it is a valid subcategory for Category:Jobs. It just needs cleaned a bit. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:57, 28 October 2017 (EDT)

This should probably be cleaned to only include chronic and/or occupational thieves, like Popple, Nabbit, Ms. Mowz, Rookie, Wario potentially, Croco, and the like. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:08, 8 February 2018 (EST)

A dissection of the state of the category

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We were asked so kindly, and so against our better judgement for our sanity's sake, here's a deep-dive on this category! We have good news and bad news--it's not as hard as the lookalikes category... but because it's one big category, it's only marginally shorter. Anyways!

A lot of the issues with this category can be traced back to one fundamental aspect of it: "The various characters and enemies in the Super Mario franchise and related series that commit acts of thievery for a living or have robbed something at any point." That bold part needs to go, NOW. Like... Do we put everyone who's ever been playable in Mario Party in because you can steal items in that game? Obviously not, that would render the category entirely worthless.

Also, why are Category:Bandits and Category:Little Mousers not subcategories? Bandit himself is in here, Little Mouser is in here too, and a few other Bandit enemies got in as well (even the ones that don't steal but do resemble Bandit, like Zeus Guy, but not the category itself? The Bandits that aren't themselves thieves should be pruned (for some reason, the Little Mousers have no such false inclusions like this?), but as a generalized inclusion, the Bandit and Little Mouser categories should totally fit in here.

Also, we want to suggest pruning kidnappers, since while that is technically stealing a person, that's kind of its own separate crime out of the scope of this. Maybe that could be an article split? There's been more than a few baddies that've tried stealing Peach or Baby Mario, after all...

• Antasma: Should be removed. We've played Dream Team twice and are just so, so normal about it... and we literally don't know why he's here.
• Baby Bowser: This may be a hot take, but we think this makes sense? Just about every antagonistic role he's had has involved him stealing things. We think the only exception is PiT, and even then, he's more of an anti-villain in that game because he has mutual enemies with the Shroobs.
• Badge Bandit: Makes sense. Bandit, steals items.
• Bandit: Makes sense. Bandit, steals items.
• Bandy Andy: Makes sense. Bandit, steals items, Jerma.
• Belle: Makes sense. She's part of a trio of thieves with Billy Bob and Colonel Culpepper.
• Big Bandit: Makes sense. It's what Bandy Andy is.
• Billy Bob: Makes sense; see Belle.
• Birdo: Should be removed. We think this is literally only here because she was very briefly partnered with Popple... And she's not actually there to steal anything, she just got a crush on Popple (somehow).
• Bowser: ...Provisional approval? We're a little unclear on this. Sure, Bowser's stolen many things over the course of the Mario franchise, but it's gotten to the point where it's easier to list the crimes Bowser hasn't committed by this point. And unlike Baby Bowser, he isn't exactly only for stealing things. We could see this swinging either way--personally, we think it's fine as it doesn't hurt the category to include this--but we could understand its exclusion.
• Bowser Jr.: ...This one can probably go. It's like Bowser, but with a much less impressive resume of stuff he's stolen compared to his father and ESPECIALLY his father as a baby (we think Bowser stealing things has only ever been relevant in Sunshine, where it's implied he stole the original paintbrush from E. Gadd--something that's never been explicitly confirmed, mind you. Aside from that we guess there's his bonus boss fight in Dream Team? But like, that's not much), the argument for including it on the grounds that it's a notable facet of him falls flat.
• Carpaccio: Makes sense. Wario: Master of Disguise is full of these various phantom thief characters.
• Collector: Makes sense. It's like a Bandit functionally, he just looks silly.
• Colonel Culpepper: Makes sense; see Belle.
• Count Cannoli: Makes sense, he is literally the Phantom thief of W:MoD.
• Croco: Makes sense, him stealing items is a recurring element and it incites both of his boss fights.
• Crook: These guys might be the most unclear ones of the bunch. As generic enemies, despite their obvious looks as a generic thief, they actually can't steal any items at all. That's truly, truly embarassing. But then, a few Crooks appear with Croco in the Mole Mines. So do they count anyways? ...Honestly, we're unsure. You could probably hold a proposal just over this enemy.
• Dr. Demise: Makes sense, he's a criminal that steals both a safe and meteor dust. This is about 5 more than the amount of thieves we expected in Supercade. Yes, we know this is the fourth one, bear with us here.
• Dr. Wily: Should probably go. Sure, Wily loves stealing various robot masters to arm them for combat and he has an impressively large collection of prototype Guts Man he almost certainly stole, but none of that happens in the Mario series; in neither Captain N, the Club Nintendo comic, not even Smash, does Wily ever actually steal a thing.
• Fluffy: Should probably go. Fluffy isn't the thief here--the Lakitu is! That's like putting the Wario Car in here!
• Frog Pirate: Should be pruned if we remove kidnappers. While ther phrasing of "it will lash out its tongue and try to steal Baby Mario" did jump out to us, it's Yoshi's Island. All of the enemies are trying to steal Baby Mario. This should almost definitely not become a glorified list of Yoshi's Island series enemies.
• Fuzzy: Provisional acceptance. We think it makes sense since in Paper Mario, there's a major sequence where they steal a ton of things from Koopa Village, but also, that's just one game--and they don't exactly steal things often in other games before and after that...
• Ghost (Wario Land 4): Makes sense. Another enemy that steals things that isn't a Bandit.
• Hand-It-Overs: Makes sense; see Bandy Andy, it's literally the team with him in it.
• Herman Smirch: Makes sense, though we will dock points for being the objectively most boring type of thief--insider theft.
• Horace: Makes sense. That's why we said there were 5 more than the amount of thieves we expected to be in Supercade.
• Iggy Koopa: Should be pruned if we remove kidnappers. Same goes for all the Koopalings.
• Itsunomanika Heihō: Should be pruned if we remove kidnappers, even if he is a Bandit--he doesn't steal coins, just babies.
• King Dedede: Should be removed. Guy doesn't even have an article to himself, do you expect him to have stolen anything in the Mario series?
• King K. Rool: Makes sense. He stole the Banana Hoard.
• Klepto: Makes sense; he steals Mario's hat. Though, why isn't Ukiki in here too? We think that's an oversight.
• Kleptoad: Makes sense; another bandit-esque enemy that's not a bandit.
• Koopalings: Should be pruned if we remove kidnappers, and uh, get ready to hear us say "see Koopalings" a lot.]]
• Larry Koopa: Should be pruned if we remove kidnappers. See Koopalings. Didn't even take a sentence.
• Larson: Makes sense, he's a bandit that's committed credit card fraud.
• Lemmy Koopa: Should be pruned if we remove kidnappers. See Koopalings.
• Little Mouser: Makes sense. When they want a thief enemy, and don't want Bandit, they'll usually use Little Mouser instead.
• Ludwig von Koopa: Should be pruned if we remove kidnappers. See Koopalings.
• Marshadow: Needs to be removed, now. Why is this the only Pokemon here? Sure, Spectral Thief is a movie. But there's a move literally just called "Thief", and that is a move that many Pokemon can learn, last we checked! Do we add Pikachu because he can learn Thief via TM? Do we add Pyukumuku, because even though it's using counter, its animation is a grab kinda like Marshadow??? In the maximal case, this category could become completely inundated with Pokemon is what we're getting at, and that needs to be nipped in the bud now.
• McGoomba: Makes sense. He evidently stole something, and it's implied the dude stole from his own mom.
• Morton Koopa Jr.: Should be pruned if we remove kidnappers. See Koopalings.
• Mouser: Makes sense; in BS Super Mario USA, he is the one who stole the various gold Mario statues that appear scattered around in the levels.
• Mr. X: Makes sense. There are 6 thieves for Supercade now. This category is giving us a skewed idea of what Supercade contains.
• Ms. Mowz: Makes sense. Her lore is that she's a badge thief, and her primary gimmick as a partner is helping you get items by stealing them off enemies.
• Nabbit: Makes sense. He is a rabbit-ish thief.
• Ninja (character): Makes sense; he does steal the trophy in Mario Sports Mix in one of his only actual character moments.
• Old lady: Makes sense. She tries to rob Mario and Luigi for their money.
• Pietro: Makes sense. He's a con artist specifically trying to steal money.
• Popple: Makes sense; literally every time he's involved, he's causing a conflict by trying to steal things, he steals the Bros. hammers, he steals the in-game terminology of "bros. attack" for crying out loud!
• Robbird: Makes sense; they are another enemy that steals coins, but isn't a Bandit.
• Rookie: Makes sense; this is literally Bowser: Oops! All Stealing! edition.
• Rouge: Unclear; while Rouge is a noted thief in her source material, a-la Dr. Wily, we don't actually know of any time she stole anything in the Olympic Games games? However, those are a tremendous blind spot for us, so maybe something happened in a super-remote installment. We don't feel like we know enough to make a judgement; if she stole something in those games, keep her in, otherwise, she can be pruned for the same reason as Dr. Wily.
• Roy Koopa: Should be pruned if we remove kidnappers. See Koopalings.
• Sackit: Should be removed. Without the ambiguity of appearing alongside an actual thief that Crooks had, these guys that can't actually steal anything don't really have a reason to be here.
• Sheep Rustlers: Makes sens--THERE ARE 9 THIEVES IN SUPERCADE
• Shy Guy: We're a little uncertain, if just for the same reason as Fuzzy. They do have a notable time they've stolen things, in Chapter 4 of Paper Mario 64! But they aren't really known for it, y'know?
• Spooky (enemy): Should be pruned if we remove kidnappers. Kinda similar to the Frog Pirate situation, actually.
• Swindell: Provisional approval. In-universe, it's stated that he's a thief, but nobody's actually seen him steal anything. We think the implication is that he is trying to be a thief, and he's just... Really bad at it. But hey, we're judging if they're thieves at all, not their talents here.
• Tac: Should probably be removed. It's just another Smash character that happens to steal things in its source material, and while it can steal things in Smash as well... That's really not saying much.
• Tryclyde: ...We're unsure. He does steal a Magical Potion in Super Mario-kun, but he then proceeds to drop it right on top of him. While we're not grading the quality of thievery as mentioned for Swindell, Swindell is stated to be a thief, and Tryclyde is not.
• Waluigi: Makes sense. In his one role as a major antagonist in Dance Dance Revolution: Mario Mix, he steals the Music Keys.
• Wario: Makes sense. If his debut involving him stealing a whole Castle doesn't do it for you, and if him constantly trying to steal Treasure in the Wario Land games doesn't convince you, and if him trying to steal wages in the Ware games doesn't do it for you either, Wario: Master of Disguise sees Wario's major new form in the game be Thief Wario. This is probably the easiest inclusion since Bandit.
• Wart: ...Should probably be excluded? Not only is his only actual moment where he steals something a kidnapping, it's only in Doki Doki Panic--that aspect doesn't factor in in SMB2.
• Wendy O. Koopa: Should be pruned if we remove kidnappers. See Koopalings.
• Yangus: Should probably be removed. He's a bandit in his source material, but there's no stealing in Itadaki Street DS and Fortune Street--just a board game.
• Zeus Guy: Should be removed. He is a Bandit! ...But he doesn't steal, he just fights good.

If there's anything we missed (such as an obvious inclusion, or if Rouge actually does steal anything in the Olympic Games games), let us know! ~Camwoodstock (talk) 20:30, January 8, 2024 (EST)

Great work! I was the one added Marshadow and Robbird to this category — the former under the logic that Spectral Thief is its signature move and thus intrinsic to its identity. None of the Pokémon in Smash even use Thief, anyways. I also attempted to add Category:Bandits as a subcategory to this, but 7feetunder shot that idea down. See my talk page for more information. Among your provisional approvals and uncertainties, I'd support removing all of them from this category aside from the Crook. If we end up adding Category:Bandits as a subcategory, we'd have to remove Swindell anyways. SolemnStormcloud (talk) 21:06, January 8, 2024 (EST)

I think Sackit should stay; even if it doesn't function as a thief, that's clearly its occupation. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:20, January 8, 2024 (EST)

I think Shadow Mario should be classed as a thief. While an extension of Bowser Jr. probably, he's just known as the guy who has items he's not supposed to have. He steals FLUDD during the platforming segments and he releases Shine Sprites and Nozzles when caught (which is strongly suggested to have been stolen given the general plot of Super Mario Sunshine). He's a kidnapper yeah but it seems like just an extension of what he does. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 22:22, January 8, 2024 (EST)

While we're on the topic of subjects who should be in this category but aren't, what about the standard Boo? As an item in most Mario Kart games and most of their non-playable appearances in the Mario Party series, Boos steal items from players. Not to mention them stealing Mario and Luigi's Command Blocks in Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga, and probably more appearances I'm not familiar with. SolemnStormcloud (talk) 22:39, January 8, 2024 (EST)

Yep, Boos should be there. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 22:48, January 8, 2024 (EST)

To rapid-fire responses so this talkpage doesn't become a mess of like, 5 distinct replies with the same timestamp: Seeing as we allow the Chain Chomp category to be a subcategory to canines despite the fact Chain Chomps are merely overly-cartoony mushroom kingdom-ized dogs, we feel like Bandit being a subcategory to Thieves would be just fine. We personally still don't like the idea of including Marshadow (if for no other reason than we think the wiki's coverage of Pokemon is long overdue for a rework--there are so many redirects clogging up categories right now!), but we do at least see the through-line there. Perhaps we were a little harsh on Sackit and Crook--admittedly, the fact they lack any actual moves to steal things was a big no for us early on, but seeing as Swindell is here despite his lack of successfully stealing things, we guess that's a reasonable enough extension. Worst-case scenario, we can bring it up in a proposal. Why isn't Shadow Mario here, now that it's been brought up--especially since Rookie is here? And standard boos would make sense, though we think Red Boo would also work as the GCN Mario Party equivalent.
tl;dr: Sackit & Crook can potentially be up for a proposal just for them, we're leaning a little more on the positive now but we could see others disagreeing pretty handily. Shadow Mario, Boo, and Red Boo should probably be included. We still would prefer to exclude Marshadow, but we understand why they're here. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 23:10, January 8, 2024 (EST)

Though I didn't bring up in my original comment, I actually support removing Marshadow per your desire to purge Smash redirects from various categories. I was just explaining why I added it to this category in this first place. I also support adding Red Boo, but I was hasty and couldn't think of a way to mention it that wasn't clunky in my comment about adding Boo. SolemnStormcloud (talk) 23:23, January 8, 2024 (EST)

So, should any of us be launching a proposal anytime soon? I told Swallow about this dissection, but he hasn't responded here nor his talk page. SolemnStormcloud (talk) 12:12, January 10, 2024 (EST)

I didn't think I would be required to post here, but what do we think about the recently added Ruddy Road Paint Guy? Nightwicked Bowser 14:42, January 11, 2024 (EST)

Well, you were the one I explained this category's current state to in the first place. As for the Ruddy Road Paint Guy, he seems fine in this category to me. SolemnStormcloud (talk) 14:53, January 11, 2024 (EST)

Suggestion: Maybe Collector (Rabbid) would be added to this list as well? They steal Washing Machine parts in the Donkey Kong Adventure DLC of Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle. Sparks (talk) 14:57, January 11, 2024 (EDT)

I don't understand why Tac listed as "should probably be removed". It looks like a thief, it steals like a thief... I also don't understand why stuff like Sackits would be excluded just because they're not shown stealing. Having a crown and being called "king" is enough to be in Category:Kings... Blinker (talk) 17:17, January 11, 2024 (EST)