Talk:Prince Froggy: Difference between revisions

:Oh, and this whole debate about "Third Party material isn't Nintendo's words!" is sidestepping what happened in [[Tetris Attack]]. To that, I ask this; '''is the "Froggy" from Tetris Attack Prince Froggy, or a Frog Pirate?''' If it really is Prince Froggy, then this page should be moved to "Froggy" as that's the enemy's most recent name. And if we do move it there, then how strong exactly is the English distinction from Frog Pirate? Really, I feel like the only reason people are considering them to be two different things is that Froggy was given the title "Prince" in SMW2. But what if Froggy is actually a Frog Pirate? In that case, Frog Pirate would have to be moved to "Froggy", since that's the most recent name. But how can we be sure that Froggy ''is'' a Frog Pirate, and then how can we be sure the English distinction is that strong? Really, I can't help but feel like there's a lot of inertia going on here, and that arguing over the schematics of how prioritized we should prioritize different official sources is glossing over the fact that what our readers think is right, or what we ''believe'' our readers think is right, is not an official source whatsoever. {{User:Somethingone/sig}} 18:20, April 6, 2023 (EDT)

::You're missing the point - the argument isn't "readers expect Prince Froggy to have a separate page, so give him one". The argument is "readers expect Prince Froggy to have a separate page ''and there's official material to support that'', so give him one". You're right, our job isn't to cater to what readers want to hear, but it is our job to present information in a straightforward and organized way. Merging a boss with a generic enemy type that's been differentiated in English material and making it harder to find by clumping it in with something else solely because Japanese guidebooks didn't bother to make the distinction is, in my opinion, not straightforward and organized. The caveat, of course, is that we perceive what "straightforward and organized" is differently, which is why we have discussions and proposals.

::As for the Japanese vs. English issue... Well, even if Japanese material is generally more accurate on the whole (which I'm skeptical of, I have to admit - especially since a commonly held belief by many users here is that "language of origin is almost always right", is that necessarily the case, or is it just an issue of defaulting?) that doesn't make it infallible by any means. The Japanese guidebooks didn't bother to distinguish Prince Froggy, and... that somehow makes the English translators deciding to make that distinction themselves a mistake? I don't even see why these have to be in opposition to each other, really. They didn't distinguish Prince Froggy from the other Frog Pirates, because, well... he is one! For the purposes of the in-game world, he's just a run-of-the-mill Frog Pirate, Kamek doesn't transform him or anything. The English translation just decided it would be a good idea to give this particularly significant Frog Pirate his own identity. That doesn't seem like a "mistake" to me. I've said this before and I'll keep saying it - the Japanese developers and licensed partners aren't as infallible as they're often made out to be, and sometimes translators make the right call. There has to be some give and take. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 19:06, April 6, 2023 (EDT)

:I will own up and say that labeling those concerns as "ulterior motives" was a bit of a ridiculous way to put it, but I'm still not buying the idea that one or two pages being inconsequential to what the readers would expect somehow does heavy damage to the wiki's reputation and search visibility. At absolute worst, someone will google "chuckster mario sunshine", find out that the wiki gives them a different name, and proclaim "huh, what weird little fellas these super mario wikis is, anyway let's see what they have to say". And I'd say the perception that this website is a reliable source of information is still as sound as ever and sometimes even overstated in spite of the minute lows the wiki has gone through; I've seen debates on the Mario franchise where participants bring up how "ackshually, Mario Wiki says ''that''" as an actual point of discourse. Which brings me back to Froggy: why wouldn't the wiki persuade its readers and bring home that, as per multiple official sources, the "boss" is actually just another enemy fought under different conditions applied solely to the player? I'd say if the site's reputation is as high as I claimed, then it's in everyone's best interests to make a candid and informed use of it, a few insignificant downward spikes in google searches notwithstanding. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 21:43, April 6, 2023 (EDT)

::To me, it's easier to think, "ok this enemy is the boss of the level, level is named after him, he's in a different context than the other guys you kill in the level and you kill him differently than the other enemies so he's a distinct entity like Hookbill is even though Hookbill literally is just a giant Koopa. Like, Hookbill's differences that make him warrant a separate article also applies to Froggy, except the circumstances is you shrinking instead of the generic Koopa growing bigger. I honestly prefer the consistency with other Yoshi's Island bosses than argue a specific case just because you're the one that shrinks than the boss that grows big. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 21:48, April 6, 2023 (EDT)