MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/54: Difference between revisions
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We already split subjects with different names and appearances, such as with [[Goombo]]. Regardless, arguably Daisy's special moves are different than other variants, as Daisy is labelled as an echo fighter, contrary to other examples of variants which are often treated as their own separate thing. Due to that there is less ground to split Daisy's special moves when they are literally part of a official clone of a character. Regardless, the "and if there are less than four variants" thing is unnecessary, as really if a thing should be split than it should be split, merging stuff just because there is a lot of things would just be confusing and would pad out articles for no reason. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 09:24, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | We already split subjects with different names and appearances, such as with [[Goombo]]. Regardless, arguably Daisy's special moves are different than other variants, as Daisy is labelled as an echo fighter, contrary to other examples of variants which are often treated as their own separate thing. Due to that there is less ground to split Daisy's special moves when they are literally part of a official clone of a character. Regardless, the "and if there are less than four variants" thing is unnecessary, as really if a thing should be split than it should be split, merging stuff just because there is a lot of things would just be confusing and would pad out articles for no reason. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 09:24, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
There are more differences between Daisy's moves and Peach's moves than Goombos and Goombas. I believe Daisy still have a seperate Movelist page in the game than Peach has. In New Super Mario Bros U Deluxe, Blue Toad and Yellow Toad were similar enough to be merged and not seperately selectable in game, and literally call the same model. They have seperate pages on the wiki. Echo Fighters are more like how you copy a file and it still takes up extra space on your harddrive, rather than creating a file shortcut. The original Japanese meaning even references how derivative numbers are still different numbers despite being copied from. -- | There are more differences between Daisy's moves and Peach's moves than Goombos and Goombas. I believe Daisy still have a seperate Movelist page in the game than Peach has. In New Super Mario Bros U Deluxe, Blue Toad and Yellow Toad were similar enough to be merged and not seperately selectable in game, and literally call the same model. They have seperate pages on the wiki. Echo Fighters are more like how you copy a file and it still takes up extra space on your harddrive, rather than creating a file shortcut. The original Japanese meaning even references how derivative numbers are still different numbers despite being copied from. --{{user|Memoryman3}} 09:30, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:There isn't more difference though. If anything, that just comes off as biased. As for Blue and Yellow Toad, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHcXqC2vOq0 you can actually select either of them]. The reason that they are in the same slot and thus cannot play as both Blue and Yellow Toad is because Toadette took the slot the Blue Toad had. They have separate pages on the wiki simply due to their previous appearances regardless. If you copy a file it is still the same file, and the comparison has nothing to do with wether or not Daisy's move should be split. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 09:40, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | :There isn't more difference though. If anything, that just comes off as biased. As for Blue and Yellow Toad, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHcXqC2vOq0 you can actually select either of them]. The reason that they are in the same slot and thus cannot play as both Blue and Yellow Toad is because Toadette took the slot the Blue Toad had. They have separate pages on the wiki simply due to their previous appearances regardless. If you copy a file it is still the same file, and the comparison has nothing to do with wether or not Daisy's move should be split. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 09:40, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:Even if you could select Blue and Yellow Toad in different slots, the only difference between them is the color of their mushroom cap. No gameplay differences and no design differences other than that, Nintendo explictly kept them as similar as possible. They are still seperate pages. Like Peach and Daisy's moves the game appearances are a bit different. As for the copying thing, if the file is changed a bit, for all intents and purposes it is a different file. For Blue Toad and Yellow Toad I would probably keep them split for the search engine reasons.-- | :Even if you could select Blue and Yellow Toad in different slots, the only difference between them is the color of their mushroom cap. No gameplay differences and no design differences other than that, Nintendo explictly kept them as similar as possible. They are still seperate pages. Like Peach and Daisy's moves the game appearances are a bit different. As for the copying thing, if the file is changed a bit, for all intents and purposes it is a different file. For Blue Toad and Yellow Toad I would probably keep them split for the search engine reasons.--{{user|Memoryman3}} 09:46, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
I have updated the proposal to more clearly reflect what I mean, and how this could be applied wiki wide. This is not reactive. -- | I have updated the proposal to more clearly reflect what I mean, and how this could be applied wiki wide. This is not reactive. --{{user|Memoryman3}} 10:29, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
Been following the matter on the talk page, and this is rather poor form to say the least. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 10:32, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | Been following the matter on the talk page, and this is rather poor form to say the least. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 10:32, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
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Generally poor form to make a proposal when you've been unanimously opposed on the talk page beforehand. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 10:37, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | Generally poor form to make a proposal when you've been unanimously opposed on the talk page beforehand. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 10:37, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
Explain how Daisy's moves don't deserve their own pages when they have been given their own pages ingame, plus content such as the identical Mario Kart wheels, Goombo, and the two Toads allowed to have their own pages with even less differences? That does not make any sense to me. We can very easily merge Goombo with Goomba as it is just the Super Mario Land variant of a Goomba with an appearance change. -- | Explain how Daisy's moves don't deserve their own pages when they have been given their own pages ingame, plus content such as the identical Mario Kart wheels, Goombo, and the two Toads allowed to have their own pages with even less differences? That does not make any sense to me. We can very easily merge Goombo with Goomba as it is just the Super Mario Land variant of a Goomba with an appearance change. --{{user|Memoryman3}} 10:40, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:Explanation. | :Explanation. | ||
*Azure Roller doesn't ''need'' a proposal, just a quick discussion. | *Azure Roller doesn't ''need'' a proposal, just a quick discussion. | ||
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In addition, Goombo and Goomba have different Japanese and English names, were explicitly described as relatives, and variants of existing enemies already have precedents for splitting. Try again. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 10:46, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | In addition, Goombo and Goomba have different Japanese and English names, were explicitly described as relatives, and variants of existing enemies already have precedents for splitting. Try again. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 10:46, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
Yes, but Daisy's moves arguably fall under the Goombo and Goomba variants. Daisy's moves, whilst behaving the same as Peach's moves, have differences including visual effects. Visuals are still a difference worth noting. If Daisy's moves looked a bit different and had the same name it would make sense to keep them merged. However the naming being different means that in order for the move to be properly represented across the web, it needs to be split into a new article. If you type Daisy Blossom into Google you don't get relevant images easily, unlike with Peach Blossom. Additionally. Daisy Blossom does not appear in any other Smash game other than Ultimate. They are also technically seperate moves, such as how Blue Toad and Yellow Toad are seperate characters. Daisy is not a Peach costume, she is unlocked seperately. It is the same thing for Azure Roller and normal Roller. Different unlock times, different appearances, different names, different wheels. A split makes sense even though the function is the same. -- | Yes, but Daisy's moves arguably fall under the Goombo and Goomba variants. Daisy's moves, whilst behaving the same as Peach's moves, have differences including visual effects. Visuals are still a difference worth noting. If Daisy's moves looked a bit different and had the same name it would make sense to keep them merged. However the naming being different means that in order for the move to be properly represented across the web, it needs to be split into a new article. If you type Daisy Blossom into Google you don't get relevant images easily, unlike with Peach Blossom. Additionally. Daisy Blossom does not appear in any other Smash game other than Ultimate. They are also technically seperate moves, such as how Blue Toad and Yellow Toad are seperate characters. Daisy is not a Peach costume, she is unlocked seperately. It is the same thing for Azure Roller and normal Roller. Different unlock times, different appearances, different names, different wheels. A split makes sense even though the function is the same. --{{user|Memoryman3}} 10:50, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:It makes no sense to make a duplicate page just to note the difference in visuals. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 10:59, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | :It makes no sense to make a duplicate page just to note the difference in visuals. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 10:59, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:The pages will not be duplicate pages however. Daisy Blossom's past edits had notable changes such as new images, new descriptions, and how it relates to Daisy's past instead of Peach's past. Daisy Parasol would show Daisy's 8 different parasol designs and how she uses it in her entrance animation and not her taunts and victory animations. The articles would also not be cluttered with references to previous games, like how Cyber Slicks and Azure Rollers don't reference Mario Kart 7. I plan to also revamp the Peach special pages along with this. -- | :The pages will not be duplicate pages however. Daisy Blossom's past edits had notable changes such as new images, new descriptions, and how it relates to Daisy's past instead of Peach's past. Daisy Parasol would show Daisy's 8 different parasol designs and how she uses it in her entrance animation and not her taunts and victory animations. The articles would also not be cluttered with references to previous games, like how Cyber Slicks and Azure Rollers don't reference Mario Kart 7. I plan to also revamp the Peach special pages along with this. --{{user|Memoryman3}} 11:04, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:Have to second DarkStar here: The matter regarding the Final Smash will probably change when sufficient proof of differences beyond the visuals and character references (which are tied to the visual appearance, if I recall correctly) is put forth on [[Talk:Peach Blossom|the Talk Page where things were initially being discussed the day prior to this proposal]]. The same should apply for the rest of the special moves in question as well, I'd imagine. Much more pertinent is the fact that how we handle enemies and how we handle fighting moves are two entirely different baskets of eggs, and using the splitting of similar-but-differentiated enemy variants as a basis for splitting move variants that have not been sufficiently differentiated doesn't strike me as a particularly sound argument. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 11:13, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | :Have to second DarkStar here: The matter regarding the Final Smash will probably change when sufficient proof of differences beyond the visuals and character references (which are tied to the visual appearance, if I recall correctly) is put forth on [[Talk:Peach Blossom|the Talk Page where things were initially being discussed the day prior to this proposal]]. The same should apply for the rest of the special moves in question as well, I'd imagine. Much more pertinent is the fact that how we handle enemies and how we handle fighting moves are two entirely different baskets of eggs, and using the splitting of similar-but-differentiated enemy variants as a basis for splitting move variants that have not been sufficiently differentiated doesn't strike me as a particularly sound argument. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 11:13, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
How so, it's literally the same thing. Goomba and Goombo have no differences beyond visuals and character references. Exact same thing with Blue Toad and Yellow Toad. You can easily merge Goombo with Goomba and no one would bat an eye. I have already put many arguments as to why Daisy's moves have merits to be seperated, and to be honest none of the reasons against it strike me as compelling or more substantial than "Daisy's just Peach in orange", and how in general there's an bias against Daisy in the wiki due to her fans. I've already provided external reasons such as search engines not correctly referencing Daisy Blossom and visual differences being important. When people are looking for Daisy Blossom, I'm pretty sure they DON'T want pictures of Peach's trophies -- | How so, it's literally the same thing. Goomba and Goombo have no differences beyond visuals and character references. Exact same thing with Blue Toad and Yellow Toad. You can easily merge Goombo with Goomba and no one would bat an eye. I have already put many arguments as to why Daisy's moves have merits to be seperated, and to be honest none of the reasons against it strike me as compelling or more substantial than "Daisy's just Peach in orange", and how in general there's an bias against Daisy in the wiki due to her fans. I've already provided external reasons such as search engines not correctly referencing Daisy Blossom and visual differences being important. When people are looking for Daisy Blossom, I'm pretty sure they DON'T want pictures of Peach's trophies --{{user|Memoryman3}} 11:22, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:If Daisy Blossom getting "proper web representation" is your main concern here, SmashWiki already covers it on its own page. And no, that's not a good reason to split, the "X wiki does it so we should do" argument has been shot down many, many times over the years. I don't know how many times we have to tell you that every single one of Daisy's moves is functionally identical to Peach's, the only differences are visuals which aren't enough to warrant a separate page. I'd also like to point out that, with the exception of her Final Smash, not even SmashWiki splits Daisy's moves and specifically mentions that there's no difference between them, and this is the same wiki that explains specific amounts of frame and knockback trajectories. Ultimate has been out for almost a year, if SmashWiki hasn't found any differences between Peach and Daisy's moves that actually affect gameplay, there aren't any. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 11:36, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | :If Daisy Blossom getting "proper web representation" is your main concern here, SmashWiki already covers it on its own page. And no, that's not a good reason to split, the "X wiki does it so we should do" argument has been shot down many, many times over the years. I don't know how many times we have to tell you that every single one of Daisy's moves is functionally identical to Peach's, the only differences are visuals which aren't enough to warrant a separate page. I'd also like to point out that, with the exception of her Final Smash, not even SmashWiki splits Daisy's moves and specifically mentions that there's no difference between them, and this is the same wiki that explains specific amounts of frame and knockback trajectories. Ultimate has been out for almost a year, if SmashWiki hasn't found any differences between Peach and Daisy's moves that actually affect gameplay, there aren't any. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 11:36, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
Gameplay is not an argument. In fact I would say that basing it only on gameplay is unfair, when there are visual differences that affect areas such as Google Images. Or how an end user is looking for a specific variant. In that case we can say that there's no difference at all between Blue Toad and Yellow Toad and that they don't deserve seperate articles. But we split them, because when someone is looking for Blue Toad or a specific variant of a wheel, they are looking for information on that Toad or wheel specifically. Merging Daisy's named moves benefits absolutely no one except the people who REALLY dislike clone characters in fighting games and think they should be erased. -- | Gameplay is not an argument. In fact I would say that basing it only on gameplay is unfair, when there are visual differences that affect areas such as Google Images. Or how an end user is looking for a specific variant. In that case we can say that there's no difference at all between Blue Toad and Yellow Toad and that they don't deserve seperate articles. But we split them, because when someone is looking for Blue Toad or a specific variant of a wheel, they are looking for information on that Toad or wheel specifically. Merging Daisy's named moves benefits absolutely no one except the people who REALLY dislike clone characters in fighting games and think they should be erased. --{{user|Memoryman3}} 11:58, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:I noticed you curiously skipped over my suggestion that you first prove there are more than visual-based and character-reference differences, and WT's rebuttal seems to indicate why, but in any case, I'll add that your statement on Goomba and Goombo is a circular argument - as stated previously, they also have different names and a statement from a notable source (''Nintendo Power'') that indicates they're related but not ''exactly'' the same. And again, splitting/merging enemies and attacks aren't handled with the same exact policies - and to boot, there have been numerous cases of pages for heavily similar enemies being split upon the basis of a different Japanese name. Furthermore, Blue Toad and Yellow Toad are very visibly two distinct characters that have both clearly appeared separately from each other, and are thus treated separately regardless of whether or not they serve the same gameplay function. As you just said in contradiction to your earlier point, gameplay is not an argument, and once we humor that notion and remove it from the equation, there are ''only'' visual-based differences to distinguish Daisy Blossom and Peach Blossom - thus no split. | :I noticed you curiously skipped over my suggestion that you first prove there are more than visual-based and character-reference differences, and WT's rebuttal seems to indicate why, but in any case, I'll add that your statement on Goomba and Goombo is a circular argument - as stated previously, they also have different names and a statement from a notable source (''Nintendo Power'') that indicates they're related but not ''exactly'' the same. And again, splitting/merging enemies and attacks aren't handled with the same exact policies - and to boot, there have been numerous cases of pages for heavily similar enemies being split upon the basis of a different Japanese name. Furthermore, Blue Toad and Yellow Toad are very visibly two distinct characters that have both clearly appeared separately from each other, and are thus treated separately regardless of whether or not they serve the same gameplay function. As you just said in contradiction to your earlier point, gameplay is not an argument, and once we humor that notion and remove it from the equation, there are ''only'' visual-based differences to distinguish Daisy Blossom and Peach Blossom - thus no split. | ||
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:Finally, even ignoring that the stated "web search engine optimization" motive is evidently an ad hoc explanation trying to cover for the other less substantiated ones rebutted above, it would likely be far from high on the list of this wiki's priorities, well below maintaining a standard of encyclopedic integrity. And last I checked, I highly doubt ''that'' standard is worth sacrificing on the altar of Google results. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 12:12, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | :Finally, even ignoring that the stated "web search engine optimization" motive is evidently an ad hoc explanation trying to cover for the other less substantiated ones rebutted above, it would likely be far from high on the list of this wiki's priorities, well below maintaining a standard of encyclopedic integrity. And last I checked, I highly doubt ''that'' standard is worth sacrificing on the altar of Google results. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 12:12, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
That does not explain why the seperate wheel designs in Mario Kart are still covered seperately despite only having decal differences. I am not objecting to these but Daisy's is literally the only case of differently named moves being used on different characters, in a different list of games, being merged. I'm not arguing that every similar move and object should be merged. I'm arguing that they should stay seperate and Daisy's moves should be seperated too. The establishment of them being different is straight in game, where Daisy Bomber and Peach Bomber have their own pages. Smash in itself is not a traditional fighter either. -- | That does not explain why the seperate wheel designs in Mario Kart are still covered seperately despite only having decal differences. I am not objecting to these but Daisy's is literally the only case of differently named moves being used on different characters, in a different list of games, being merged. I'm not arguing that every similar move and object should be merged. I'm arguing that they should stay seperate and Daisy's moves should be seperated too. The establishment of them being different is straight in game, where Daisy Bomber and Peach Bomber have their own pages. Smash in itself is not a traditional fighter either. --{{user|Memoryman3}} 12:23, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:Simple: Tires have separate articles because ''Mario Kart 7'' and ''8'' established the trend of tire choice affecting vehicle performance. And if you didn't object to them, then why invoke them at all and go so far as to claim some of those instances don't deserve articles? | :Simple: Tires have separate articles because ''Mario Kart 7'' and ''8'' established the trend of tire choice affecting vehicle performance. And if you didn't object to them, then why invoke them at all and go so far as to claim some of those instances don't deserve articles? | ||
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:In addition, Daisy's likely seems to be the only case because she's the only Echo Fighter in Smash who's native to the Mario franchise - AKA the main reason her moves are covered on their own articles ''like all the other Mario characters''; if other cases come up, they will receive the same treatment, and in fact I recall Dr. Mario used to receive the same treatment prior to determining that his moves were different enough from Mario's to warrant splitting coverage accordingly. Smash not being a traditional fighter has no bearing on this, and more to the point was never brought up by anyone else before you mentioned it. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 12:30, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | :In addition, Daisy's likely seems to be the only case because she's the only Echo Fighter in Smash who's native to the Mario franchise - AKA the main reason her moves are covered on their own articles ''like all the other Mario characters''; if other cases come up, they will receive the same treatment, and in fact I recall Dr. Mario used to receive the same treatment prior to determining that his moves were different enough from Mario's to warrant splitting coverage accordingly. Smash not being a traditional fighter has no bearing on this, and more to the point was never brought up by anyone else before you mentioned it. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 12:30, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
That...still doesn't explain the wheels in Mario Kart. One user already explained merging the palette swapped wheels made them uneasy, despite them being identical in every other way. Also, I think being an Echo Fighter is not a good reason to merge the moves, when they are not exactly the same. Fighting game fans do have an inherent bias against clone characters and it ripples everywhere from message boards to tier lists. What benefit is there to keeping Daisy's moves merged, and do they outweigh the drawbacks, if there are even any? I agree though, I don't think I have made my point clear and this proposal is too vague. -- | That...still doesn't explain the wheels in Mario Kart. One user already explained merging the palette swapped wheels made them uneasy, despite them being identical in every other way. Also, I think being an Echo Fighter is not a good reason to merge the moves, when they are not exactly the same. Fighting game fans do have an inherent bias against clone characters and it ripples everywhere from message boards to tier lists. What benefit is there to keeping Daisy's moves merged, and do they outweigh the drawbacks, if there are even any? I agree though, I don't think I have made my point clear and this proposal is too vague. --{{user|Memoryman3}} 12:35, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:I know I said I'd support merging the recolor tires, but I'm starting to go back on that because of one reason, and that's the fact that they're Mario Kart 8 variants of tires that were previously introduced in Mario Kart 7, and merging them might be a bit messy. And no, this isn't the same thing as Daisy Blossom being introduced in Ultimate. Tires in Mario Kart have differing stats from game to game, and it would be awkward having a section talking about stats in Mario Kart 7 when that specific tire didn't even exist yet. Meanwhile, Peach Blossom has changed very little since its introduction in Brawl, and doesn't have any game-specific sections that would make Daisy Blossom's inclusion on the page feel awkward. Also, I don't think many users on this wiki hate clone characters. Personally, I welcome Echo Fighters because it gives a chance for more characters to get in the game. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:43, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | :I know I said I'd support merging the recolor tires, but I'm starting to go back on that because of one reason, and that's the fact that they're Mario Kart 8 variants of tires that were previously introduced in Mario Kart 7, and merging them might be a bit messy. And no, this isn't the same thing as Daisy Blossom being introduced in Ultimate. Tires in Mario Kart have differing stats from game to game, and it would be awkward having a section talking about stats in Mario Kart 7 when that specific tire didn't even exist yet. Meanwhile, Peach Blossom has changed very little since its introduction in Brawl, and doesn't have any game-specific sections that would make Daisy Blossom's inclusion on the page feel awkward. Also, I don't think many users on this wiki hate clone characters. Personally, I welcome Echo Fighters because it gives a chance for more characters to get in the game. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:43, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:Peach Blossom's operation has changed notably between game to game however. In Brawl, it spawned thirteen small peaches, and did not affect users airborne. In Smash 4, it affected users airborne in exchange for shorter range and sleeping time, it also got completely redrawn and summoned three large peaches. Ultimate's variant had significantly increased sleeping time and new aesthetics in the background. Peach Bomber has changed drastically between games (startup, distance, damage, effects and knockback) and had custom move variants that Daisy's version obviously lacks. Peach Parasol also got tweaked quite a bit. Of course, information such as the trophies do not relate to Daisy's variant at all. -- | :Peach Blossom's operation has changed notably between game to game however. In Brawl, it spawned thirteen small peaches, and did not affect users airborne. In Smash 4, it affected users airborne in exchange for shorter range and sleeping time, it also got completely redrawn and summoned three large peaches. Ultimate's variant had significantly increased sleeping time and new aesthetics in the background. Peach Bomber has changed drastically between games (startup, distance, damage, effects and knockback) and had custom move variants that Daisy's version obviously lacks. Peach Parasol also got tweaked quite a bit. Of course, information such as the trophies do not relate to Daisy's variant at all. --{{user|Memoryman3}} 12:51, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:And again with the circular arguing. On top of differences between MK7 and 8, the wheels are all distinct from each other and have a tangible effect on gameplay (i.e. changing the overall stats of the kart they're used on) that is not universally shared among each wheel type. The palettes of said wheels contribute absolutely nothing towards that, and thus are safe to merge. In short: tire choice affects vehicle performance, and the only way that doesn't explain it is if you didn't read it to begin with. | :And again with the circular arguing. On top of differences between MK7 and 8, the wheels are all distinct from each other and have a tangible effect on gameplay (i.e. changing the overall stats of the kart they're used on) that is not universally shared among each wheel type. The palettes of said wheels contribute absolutely nothing towards that, and thus are safe to merge. In short: tire choice affects vehicle performance, and the only way that doesn't explain it is if you didn't read it to begin with. | ||
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:The merge is not done for the sake of some arbitrary benefit, but because it is in accordance with established policies, guidelines and precedents on covering such things, which dictates it is not substantially differentiated enough to warrant a split. (Clarifying Edit: Peach Blossom has had various changes between games, yes - but Daisy Blossom has not, as it is directly based on the version used with ''Ultimate'', and there has yet to be any proof of difference between ''those two versions'', making the changes to Peach Blossom between games irrelevant.) And as we've painstakingly outlined, the drawbacks of blatantly and selectively ignoring these policies, guidelines and precedents in favor of a poorly-justified split whose reasoning has been shown to be thoroughly unsound rebutted far outweighs any of the similarly-debated-''and''-rebutted imagined benefits. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 12:57, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | :The merge is not done for the sake of some arbitrary benefit, but because it is in accordance with established policies, guidelines and precedents on covering such things, which dictates it is not substantially differentiated enough to warrant a split. (Clarifying Edit: Peach Blossom has had various changes between games, yes - but Daisy Blossom has not, as it is directly based on the version used with ''Ultimate'', and there has yet to be any proof of difference between ''those two versions'', making the changes to Peach Blossom between games irrelevant.) And as we've painstakingly outlined, the drawbacks of blatantly and selectively ignoring these policies, guidelines and precedents in favor of a poorly-justified split whose reasoning has been shown to be thoroughly unsound rebutted far outweighs any of the similarly-debated-''and''-rebutted imagined benefits. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 12:57, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
That falls apart when you realise that quoted from the wiki itself, ''The only difference between the Roller and Azure Roller is the azure palette and the gray screw-like rims, surrounded by a yellow outline.'', Absolutely no stat differences whatsoever. Many wheels in Mario Kart have identical stats, yet they are seperated for consistency. By that precedent, all of Daisy's named specials should be seperated for encyclopedic intergity and a lack of bias. Arguing against it is essentially identical to arguing against WaluigiTime's point of keeping the wheels seperate.-- | That falls apart when you realise that quoted from the wiki itself, ''The only difference between the Roller and Azure Roller is the azure palette and the gray screw-like rims, surrounded by a yellow outline.'', Absolutely no stat differences whatsoever. Many wheels in Mario Kart have identical stats, yet they are seperated for consistency. By that precedent, all of Daisy's named specials should be seperated for encyclopedic intergity and a lack of bias. Arguing against it is essentially identical to arguing against WaluigiTime's point of keeping the wheels seperate.--{{user|Memoryman3}} 13:02, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
I wasn't going to comment further, but here's an Omega Tyrant-style deconstruction. | I wasn't going to comment further, but here's an Omega Tyrant-style deconstruction. | ||
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That's already a split too. 3/4 of this list is completely unnecessary, and the other quarter is dubious at best. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 13:33, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | That's already a split too. 3/4 of this list is completely unnecessary, and the other quarter is dubious at best. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 13:33, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
I agree about most of this propsal being vague. I want to delete it and make a talk page proposal on the relevant article. -- | I agree about most of this propsal being vague. I want to delete it and make a talk page proposal on the relevant article. --{{user|Memoryman3}} 13:44, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:A lot of DarkStar's response is what I basically covered in my vote reason above, but it does bear repeating. In addition, note the context of your own statements. | :A lot of DarkStar's response is what I basically covered in my vote reason above, but it does bear repeating. In addition, note the context of your own statements. | ||
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:And with sufficient evidence of such grounds ''still'' yet to be provided, and readily available evidence of an ulterior motive that undermines the legitimacy of the proposal being overwhelming - along with many an established basis for both the current nature of the coverage and the reason that such changes would run counter to current policy and efficient coverage overall - there is no reason at all that this proposal should pass. There is certainly no reason that things should have been "escalated" to this point, either: a Talk Page proposal should have been the course of action taken, and yet said discussion was shoehorned into a suggested policy amendment seemingly before the former option was even considered. That - on top of ''everything else'' about the proposed change - indicates that the result of the TPP will likely be the same. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 14:00, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | :And with sufficient evidence of such grounds ''still'' yet to be provided, and readily available evidence of an ulterior motive that undermines the legitimacy of the proposal being overwhelming - along with many an established basis for both the current nature of the coverage and the reason that such changes would run counter to current policy and efficient coverage overall - there is no reason at all that this proposal should pass. There is certainly no reason that things should have been "escalated" to this point, either: a Talk Page proposal should have been the course of action taken, and yet said discussion was shoehorned into a suggested policy amendment seemingly before the former option was even considered. That - on top of ''everything else'' about the proposed change - indicates that the result of the TPP will likely be the same. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 14:00, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
As for Star Thwomp and Super Thwomp, it is literally the same entity, but Prima gave it a different name. Peach's moves and Daisy's moves exist together as different entities with OBVIOUS VISUAL DIFFERENCES but function the same. 2 out of 3. That should be enough. -- | As for Star Thwomp and Super Thwomp, it is literally the same entity, but Prima gave it a different name. Peach's moves and Daisy's moves exist together as different entities with OBVIOUS VISUAL DIFFERENCES but function the same. 2 out of 3. That should be enough. --{{user|Memoryman3}} 17:12, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:It's not. Moves aren't entities, unlike with Star Thwomps. Both moves are the same. So really there is only still one argument for their split, which isn't enough. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 17:15, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | :It's not. Moves aren't entities, unlike with Star Thwomps. Both moves are the same. So really there is only still one argument for their split, which isn't enough. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 17:15, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
::So if Bowser and Donkey Kong got super moves which involved Bowser's fire breath and DK's barrel, but they had the exact same gameplay effect, would they be merged? -- | ::So if Bowser and Donkey Kong got super moves which involved Bowser's fire breath and DK's barrel, but they had the exact same gameplay effect, would they be merged? --{{user|Memoryman3}} 19:12, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:::[[Special Shot#Mario Tennis Aces|Actually, yes]]. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 19:14, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | :::[[Special Shot#Mario Tennis Aces|Actually, yes]]. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 19:14, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
::::Fair point. However, there is no bias towards any variant on that page. Dry Bowser's Blazing Barrage is not merged with Bowser's Fire Breath in the table, despite being almost the same in every way. In the merged Peach/Daisy Blossom pages, there is a huge bias towards Peach's variant to the point where Daisy's is drowned out and can't be easily accessed outside the wiki, especially if the user is looking for assets. If we give equal spaces to them, it will look messy. It's a lose-lose situation. -- | ::::Fair point. However, there is no bias towards any variant on that page. Dry Bowser's Blazing Barrage is not merged with Bowser's Fire Breath in the table, despite being almost the same in every way. In the merged Peach/Daisy Blossom pages, there is a huge bias towards Peach's variant to the point where Daisy's is drowned out and can't be easily accessed outside the wiki, especially if the user is looking for assets. If we give equal spaces to them, it will look messy. It's a lose-lose situation. --{{user|Memoryman3}} 19:20, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:::"However, there is no bias towards any variant on that page" because all of them are variants of the same Powershot move in one game, which originated in that game, and have all their visual and animation differences noted. With Peach and Daisy Blossom, there's only two variants to compare: one of them has existed for several games, and the other is a variant of the first one based directly and heavily on its latest appearance. And they ''also'' only have visuals and animations to differentiate them - that's not bias, there's just legitimately not much else to cover, and certainly not enough to split. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 19:25, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | :::"However, there is no bias towards any variant on that page" because all of them are variants of the same Powershot move in one game, which originated in that game, and have all their visual and animation differences noted. With Peach and Daisy Blossom, there's only two variants to compare: one of them has existed for several games, and the other is a variant of the first one based directly and heavily on its latest appearance. And they ''also'' only have visuals and animations to differentiate them - that's not bias, there's just legitimately not much else to cover, and certainly not enough to split. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 19:25, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
YOU think that's not enough to warrant a split. What about if there are several roller wheels and they each got their own pages. despite having as you put it, only minor differences in the textures. The fact that Peach Blossom and Daisy Blossom only are two moves means that a split wouldn't look messy and unwarranted, because then the seperate content can be covered without making the page look cluttered. That is the point I want to get across, and seeing as how many other extremely similar cases are handled, I think there is a strong, strong personal bias. -- | YOU think that's not enough to warrant a split. What about if there are several roller wheels and they each got their own pages. despite having as you put it, only minor differences in the textures. The fact that Peach Blossom and Daisy Blossom only are two moves means that a split wouldn't look messy and unwarranted, because then the seperate content can be covered without making the page look cluttered. That is the point I want to get across, and seeing as how many other extremely similar cases are handled, I think there is a strong, strong personal bias. --{{user|Memoryman3}} 06:01, October 21, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:I keep telling you there is no friggin' personal bias, stop going in circles groundlessly claiming that there is, it's immeasurably aggravating. Also "vehicle parts" are not the same type of entity to shared moves. This isn't apples and oranges, this is celery stalks and durians. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 06:14, October 21, 2019 (EDT) | :I keep telling you there is no friggin' personal bias, stop going in circles groundlessly claiming that there is, it's immeasurably aggravating. Also "vehicle parts" are not the same type of entity to shared moves. This isn't apples and oranges, this is celery stalks and durians. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 06:14, October 21, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:Yes, ''I'' think that's not enough to warrant a split - that's how opinions work. And I've backed up my opinion with actual relevant examples of naming and splitting policies being applied to such cases, as have several other people in their own dissenting opinions. This is including your constant circular argument of "but da wheels!!1!" and the repeated contesting that those scenario are exactly the same - despite the fact that I and others have repeatedly addressed them and explained how different types of subjects are and have been consistently handled with different types of coverage by the wiki (again, with ''actual'' citations of those examples). Your refusal to acknowledge that or other "inconvenient" facts are in no way evidence of any personal bias on our part, and to accuse others of bad faith at this point is both transparently sanctimonious and inflammatory. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 06:27, October 21, 2019 (EDT) | :Yes, ''I'' think that's not enough to warrant a split - that's how opinions work. And I've backed up my opinion with actual relevant examples of naming and splitting policies being applied to such cases, as have several other people in their own dissenting opinions. This is including your constant circular argument of "but da wheels!!1!" and the repeated contesting that those scenario are exactly the same - despite the fact that I and others have repeatedly addressed them and explained how different types of subjects are and have been consistently handled with different types of coverage by the wiki (again, with ''actual'' citations of those examples). Your refusal to acknowledge that or other "inconvenient" facts are in no way evidence of any personal bias on our part, and to accuse others of bad faith at this point is both transparently sanctimonious and inflammatory. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 06:27, October 21, 2019 (EDT) | ||
::Also, Doc, I understand this is aggravating, and a bit late in the process to give this kind of advice, but try not to get ''too'' heated. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 06:37, October 21, 2019 (EDT) | ::Also, Doc, I understand this is aggravating, and a bit late in the process to give this kind of advice, but try not to get ''too'' heated. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 06:37, October 21, 2019 (EDT) |
Revision as of 23:06, October 27, 2019
Add RARS to Template:Ratingsadd 20-0 Proposer: Revilime (talk) Support
OpposeCommentsHow isn't it distinct from it? -- FanOfYoshi 12:12, July 12, 2019 (EDT)
RARS was created in 2012. So, only games released after that have RARS rating, I think.-- Reviilime (talk · edits) 12:36, July 12, 2019 (EDT)
Reviilime (talk · edits) 13:01, July 12, 2019 (EDT) @FanOfYoshi heh I appreciate inputting my name in Cyrillic but ignoring that Baby Luigi is actually called Малыш Луиджи, my name romanized would actually be spelled Бейби Луиджи. It was pretty close though! Ray Trace(T|C) 14:09, July 16, 2019 (EDT) Create a Mario Party 11 redirectrecreate 17-0 Proposer: MarioManiac1981 (talk) Support
OpposeCommentsHere's the proposal in question in case anyone wants to view it before voting here. (T|C) 00:08, July 14, 2019 (EDT) Super Mario Party does refer to itself as "the 11th party" in-game. Scrooge200 (talk) 00:14, July 14, 2019 (EDT)
Create articles for the worlds in Dr. Mario Worldcanceled by the administrators After looking at the above proposal, knowing that Dr. Mario World simply doesn't warrant articles for each of its worlds, we'd might as well get the game's worlds themselves covered. Each of Dr. Mario World's levels don't have much information to about themselves, but the worlds as a whole have a lot more that can be brought up about them. Kinda like five sticks being tied together being stronger than each individual stick. 'Nuff said, the above proposal and the opinions of Toadette the Achiever and Mario JC back this proposal up. Proposer: MarioManiac1981 (talk) Support
Oppose
CommentsThere's absolutely no point in forcing a second proposal, just vote on the appropriate option above and state your reasoning as you did here. The proposal seems to have an overwhelming consensus now, but there's the remote possibility of it changing by the proposal's end. -- Lord G. matters. 23:29, July 21, 2019 (EDT) Add template for Super Smash Bros. Ultimate's movescanceled by the administrators I've noticed that previous Super Smash Bros. games have templates leading to the characters' special moves, as well as universal techniques like air dodging, footstool jumping, and tether recoveries. It's been more than 7 months since Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - the most recent Smash game - was released, yet we still don't have a templates dedicated to its characters' moves. I'd like to change that. Proposer: MarioManiac1981 (talk) Support
Oppose
CommentsThis really does not need a proposal. All other Smash games have a template like this, and it should automatically should be no different for Ultimate. Doomhiker (talk) 19:36, July 22, 2019 (EDT)
btw opposes mean you don't want the template to exist in the first place, so that's kind of conflicting with your comments. I can probably just cancel this outright, but I want to see what MarioManiac says first. 21:13, July 22, 2019 (EDT)
Add when the Just released and New subject should be removed, while slightly rewording the former templatechange the templates 10-0 This is how the templates should look like after this proposal passes, if it does: This article is about a game that has just been released. Major changes should be made by a contributor who has a reliable source. This template should be removed after a month has passed since the game was first released. This article is about a subject in an upcoming or recently released game. When the game is released, or more information about this subject is found, this article may need major rewriting. This template should be removed after a month has passed since the game was first released. The templates' pages will also include the date of removal. Proposer: Doomhiker (talk) Support
OpposeComments@FanOfYoshi I done it on this page due to it affecting two templates. I would much rather one proposal then two dealing with near-identical matters. Doomhiker (talk) 13:22, July 17, 2019 (EDT)
Disallow use of "per all" votes on proposals and featured article nominationscanceled by proposer Therefore, I propose that the use of "Per all" in any proposal or featured article nominations be prohibited, and any votes involving its use are eligible for removal (unless they provide other reasons along with "per all", in which case the "per all" portion of the vote be removed and the rest of the vote stays as-is). "Per proposal" and "Per <user>" votes will still be allowed, but in the case of the latter, voters must list the users they most strongly agree with, one by one. This provides at least some certainty that they have considered the matter carefully, and examined the reasons to see which ones they buy. Proposer: YoshiFlutterJump (talk) Support
Oppose
CommentsYes, there's an inherent irony in my typing an entire paragraph about how this is going to make people feel compelled to type paragraphs, and no, I don't much care because that's well beside the point. -- Lord G. matters. 19:02, July 27, 2019 (EDT)
I do think that rule of "Every vote should have a strong, sensible reason accompanying it" is not necessary. Per all and blank votes are simply just reiterating the other positions. To assume the worst from blank votes kinda runs against the whole "assume good faith" sort of thing. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 19:37, July 27, 2019 (EDT) Create articles on individual Dr. Mario levelsOnly create articles on the levels from Dr Mario: Miracle Cure 3-11-0-0 It still bothers me that somehow the Dr. Mario series levels aren't explicitly covered by policy, so I propose that we be able to create them. I know that it may be a bit of a stretch to propose this, but I think we have a good precedent to go by: the levels from the Minion Quest: The Search for Bowser and Bowser Jr.'s Journey modes of Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga + Bowser's Minions and Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story + Bowser Jr.'s Journey, as even though they aren't really comprehensive levels per se (and thus would technically be in the same boat as the aforementioned Dr. Mario series levels), they still have articles nonetheless. Should this proposal fail for either game, tables on the list of stages in each game will be created instead. Proposer: Toadette the Achiever (talk) Create articles for both games' levels
Only create articles on the levels from Dr Mario: Miracle Cure
Only create articles on the levels from Dr Mario WorldDon't create any articlesCommentsFor the level layouts, we can show the virus layouts like this: Is it a good idea? TheDarkStar 15:37, July 21, 2019 (EDT)
What about full Worlds in Dr. Mario World? I think those should recieve articles, but probably not the individual levels. --DeepFriedCabbage 17:08, July 21, 2019 (EDT)
there i made an article on one of the worlds from dr mario world Ray Trace(T|C) 17:51, July 25, 2019 (EDT) Reorganize and split Gallery:Toys and other Merchandise galleriesreorganize 13-1 Even if this proposal does pass, we should consider sorting the merchandise into sections or articles, so like Super Mario series merchandise, Yoshi's Island merchandise, Donkey Kong series merchandise, Mario Kart merchandise. There's simply too much merchandise. Mario is one of the biggest gaming franchise of them all and has numerous spinoffs and franchises. The longevity of the franchise makes me think it's the biggest gaming franchise of them all... I'm definitely going to need the community's help on this big proposal. Proposer: Results May Vary (talk) Support
Oppose
CommentsSo what are some possible ideas for how we will reorganize the articles into mainspace? What will the titles be? I definitely think doing it by franchise and spinoff series is the way to go. general merchandise (such as generic mario emblem) can be sorted under "general merchandise" or something like that. I want to hear your opinions. Results May Vary (talk) 22:10, July 22, 2019 (EDT)
New template: Alphabetizefailed 6-14 The template would look like this: It has been requested that this section be re-organized to be in alphabetical order. Proposer: Trig Jegman (talk) Support
Oppose
Commentsi said that the borders of the template is too thick and it's inconsistent with the rest of the templates in its fashion. Ray Trace(T|C) 23:38, August 1, 2019 (EDT)
@Doomhiker, Tense can likely go. It's a subsidiary of the Rewrite template, even sharing its category. No mainspace pages are currently using it, possibly using the standard Rewrite template instead. It seems pretty redundant. As for Trivia, it's meant for one specific type of section and has its own category to go with it. 15:16, August 2, 2019 (EDT)
One suggestion I have would be to add a parameter for the user to specify a request for another sort order other than alphabetical (e.g., "It has been requested that this section be re-organized to be in release-date order." for character screenshot galleries) as other sort orders are common and I have seen many character screenshot galleries that aren't sorted properly. This may address Results May Vary's point. --Super Mario Fan 67 (T•C•S) 22:53, August 2, 2019 (EDT) Ban friend userboxescanceled by proposer I've seen users giving each other friend userboxes after a "friend request" (a talk page message). Thing is, this is not a social media site. There is no reason to keep around a relic from the past that should have been removed years ago. Proposer: TheDarkStar (talk) Support
Oppose
CommentsYes, i'm aware that this is not a social media, but as long as they are not too frequent, they can stay. I oppose. -- FanOfYoshi 10:47, August 10, 2019 (EDT) @Niiue: I'm pretty sure that one of the MarioWiki pages said "this is not a social media site" somewhere, but I'll remove the misinformation. Friend userboxes don't positively impact the wiki either. No reason to keep something that doesn't do anything besides look nice. TheDarkStar 11:04, August 10, 2019 (EDT)
Determine how to handle unused appearancesinclude in the history section in other appearances 0-0-13-0 Proposer: Obsessive Mario Fan (talk) Keep in pre-release and unused content sections onlyKeep in the trivia sectionInclude in the history section in "Other appearances"
Include in the history section as its own subsectionCommentsOn a similar note, if we're going to be moving "actual" (so-to-speak) appearances of subjects to an other appearances section, can we move sections that consist of "this subject doesn't appear in this game but something similar does" to other appearances or remove them entirely? It's always bothered me looking over history sections and seeing sections for games those subjects never appeared in just because of the appearance of a subspecies or similar concept, i.e. Dry Bones in 3D World and Odyssey. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 13:43, August 20, 2019 (EDT)
@Mario Sakuraba I think minor cameos should be included as their own subsections as long as they still remain in the Mario series. For example, a Koopa Shell making a small appearance in Kirby Super Star would go in other appearances, but Yoshi in SM64 would get its own section. --DeepFriedCabbage 17:10, August 20, 2019 (EDT) I also think appearances in board games, card games, etc. based on the Mario series should go in other appearances. --DeepFriedCabbage 17:11, August 20, 2019 (EDT) Create a DYK Committeecancelled by administrator Recently, I have noticed a lot of edits made to Template:DidYouKnow that were, to the most part, kinda bad. They were either unsourced in their original article, poorly-written, or just not notable enough for a section on interesting stuff (there was one that treated bomb cars exploding like something amazing).
And this was brought up by Lord Bowser on the boards; we could also turn the Poll Committee into a Main Page Committee and let them do all the Main Page updating. Drawbacks:
Proposer: TheDarkStar (talk) Create a DYK Committee
Make the Poll Committee a Main Page CommitteeDo nothing
CommentsOn the talk page for the template, I suggested that the Did You Know committee could also be in charge of the Featured Article and News sections on the Main Page as well. What are your thoughts on this? --DeepFriedCabbage 12:04, September 21, 2019 (EDT)
I suggest reading this thread. Some ideas were thrown around. LudwigVon is open to expanding thee pc to include DYK too. Doomhiker (talk) 12:56, September 21, 2019 (EDT)
@7feetunder: There is a point to this. If bad edits are consistently being made to the template, along with its bursts of inactivity, why would a few users in a committee working on it be a problem? You can't just block one or two users from editing for something as small as that. DYK, as minor as it is, is on the Main Page. If something is consistently being badly written, you find a solution. These edits weren't vandalism or something, they were adding facts to the DYK template... that happened to be non-notable, but facts nonetheless. Anyone can add facts to it, yes, but this includes everyone who considers stuff like lit bombs exploding or save data descriptions notable. I'm rather skeptical about people having "less ideas" for DYK, when we literally work on a massive Mario database filled with interesting facts. If they're really idea-starved, they can just hit "Random page" until they find something interesting. Besides, three or four people would be an upgrade, compared to the two who regularly update it. Either way, it is perfectly fine to contact a committee member that something isn't alright; heck, you could just contact an admin, since the template would likely be admin-protected. If I noticed bad edits being made to a featured article, I would revert them, since they, unlike DYK, are not meant to be updated every week with interesting info. TheDarkStar 10:48, September 22, 2019 (EDT)
@TheDarkStar: You can ask for the proposal to be cancelled if you want, IIRC. -- Lord G. matters. 12:17, September 25, 2019 (EDT)
Split all multi-items in the Mario Kart seriessplit 10-2 One of the habits of choice in 2009/2010 was destroying small articles deemed "stubs" and merging them into parent articles. This included the multi-items from the Mario Kart series, and no one opposed it then. While back then everything was merged with good intentions, right now I don't see exactly how those articles are "stubs" at all. It's also not like they're just multiple items in one; in fact, there are some traits about Mario Kart multi-items that actually function different from the base item. The most common difference is the multiple items orbiting the player's kart (Double Bob-ombs, Triple Green Shells and Triple Red Shells in all games they appear in except Double Dash!!, and Triple Bananas and Triple Mushrooms in 8 and 8 Deluxe), though there are other differences as well (such as automatically being placed behind the player's kart). Plus, it's usually common sense to split out similarly-looking items when nearly everything else about them is different. In addition, the way the subjects are clumped together aren't that impressive either; what else would it be but trying to alternate between subjects when presenting them in separate articles would be better? All in all, these are fairly separate subjects I would like to see re-split. Proposer: Toadette the Achiever (talk) Support
Oppose
CommentsHere's the full list:
I think it's also worth noting that Banana Bunch is the exceptional case here; I'd also support throwing in the Donkey Kong Country series information seeing as how we already handle 5 Coin and 10-Coin. (T|C) 15:27, October 5, 2019 (EDT)
@alex95: triple items have different probabilities and rarities on your placement than single items (triple green shells do not even appear in ds wifi matches), they also form a shield circling around your kart which makes them more functionality different than single green shells, despite the minor difference, and they take up their own slot separate from green shells. and explain how character exclusivity isn't an "argument" the fact that only some characters can use the specific set of items strengthens the argument for the split rather than not. Ray Trace(T|C) 16:53, October 10, 2019 (EDT)
Make the archives for the proposals uneditable unless you are a Bureaucrat or Admin.vetoed by the administrators Proposer: Mad_Hunter_ (talk) Support
OpposeSplit articles/keep articles split if they have notable name and appearance changes. Merge articles if they have the same name and not enough changes from the original.do nothing 1-12 I propose that articles covering similar should be split in the following conditions.
Articles possibily affected include: Daisy Blossom, Daisy Bomber, Daisy Parasol, Azure Roller, Cyber Slick, Goombo and the ports of games with the same name such as Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker and Luigi's Mansion. Proposer: Memoryman3 (talk) Support
Oppose
CommentsWe already split subjects with different names and appearances, such as with Goombo. Regardless, arguably Daisy's special moves are different than other variants, as Daisy is labelled as an echo fighter, contrary to other examples of variants which are often treated as their own separate thing. Due to that there is less ground to split Daisy's special moves when they are literally part of a official clone of a character. Regardless, the "and if there are less than four variants" thing is unnecessary, as really if a thing should be split than it should be split, merging stuff just because there is a lot of things would just be confusing and would pad out articles for no reason. Doomhiker (talk) 09:24, October 20, 2019 (EDT) There are more differences between Daisy's moves and Peach's moves than Goombos and Goombas. I believe Daisy still have a seperate Movelist page in the game than Peach has. In New Super Mario Bros U Deluxe, Blue Toad and Yellow Toad were similar enough to be merged and not seperately selectable in game, and literally call the same model. They have seperate pages on the wiki. Echo Fighters are more like how you copy a file and it still takes up extra space on your harddrive, rather than creating a file shortcut. The original Japanese meaning even references how derivative numbers are still different numbers despite being copied from. --Memoryman3 (talk) 09:30, October 20, 2019 (EDT)
I have updated the proposal to more clearly reflect what I mean, and how this could be applied wiki wide. This is not reactive. --Memoryman3 (talk) 10:29, October 20, 2019 (EDT) Been following the matter on the talk page, and this is rather poor form to say the least. -- Lord G. matters. 10:32, October 20, 2019 (EDT) Generally poor form to make a proposal when you've been unanimously opposed on the talk page beforehand. TheDarkStar 10:37, October 20, 2019 (EDT) Explain how Daisy's moves don't deserve their own pages when they have been given their own pages ingame, plus content such as the identical Mario Kart wheels, Goombo, and the two Toads allowed to have their own pages with even less differences? That does not make any sense to me. We can very easily merge Goombo with Goomba as it is just the Super Mario Land variant of a Goomba with an appearance change. --Memoryman3 (talk) 10:40, October 20, 2019 (EDT)
In addition, Goombo and Goomba have different Japanese and English names, were explicitly described as relatives, and variants of existing enemies already have precedents for splitting. Try again. -- Lord G. matters. 10:46, October 20, 2019 (EDT) Yes, but Daisy's moves arguably fall under the Goombo and Goomba variants. Daisy's moves, whilst behaving the same as Peach's moves, have differences including visual effects. Visuals are still a difference worth noting. If Daisy's moves looked a bit different and had the same name it would make sense to keep them merged. However the naming being different means that in order for the move to be properly represented across the web, it needs to be split into a new article. If you type Daisy Blossom into Google you don't get relevant images easily, unlike with Peach Blossom. Additionally. Daisy Blossom does not appear in any other Smash game other than Ultimate. They are also technically seperate moves, such as how Blue Toad and Yellow Toad are seperate characters. Daisy is not a Peach costume, she is unlocked seperately. It is the same thing for Azure Roller and normal Roller. Different unlock times, different appearances, different names, different wheels. A split makes sense even though the function is the same. --Memoryman3 (talk) 10:50, October 20, 2019 (EDT)
How so, it's literally the same thing. Goomba and Goombo have no differences beyond visuals and character references. Exact same thing with Blue Toad and Yellow Toad. You can easily merge Goombo with Goomba and no one would bat an eye. I have already put many arguments as to why Daisy's moves have merits to be seperated, and to be honest none of the reasons against it strike me as compelling or more substantial than "Daisy's just Peach in orange", and how in general there's an bias against Daisy in the wiki due to her fans. I've already provided external reasons such as search engines not correctly referencing Daisy Blossom and visual differences being important. When people are looking for Daisy Blossom, I'm pretty sure they DON'T want pictures of Peach's trophies --Memoryman3 (talk) 11:22, October 20, 2019 (EDT)
Gameplay is not an argument. In fact I would say that basing it only on gameplay is unfair, when there are visual differences that affect areas such as Google Images. Or how an end user is looking for a specific variant. In that case we can say that there's no difference at all between Blue Toad and Yellow Toad and that they don't deserve seperate articles. But we split them, because when someone is looking for Blue Toad or a specific variant of a wheel, they are looking for information on that Toad or wheel specifically. Merging Daisy's named moves benefits absolutely no one except the people who REALLY dislike clone characters in fighting games and think they should be erased. --Memoryman3 (talk) 11:58, October 20, 2019 (EDT)
That does not explain why the seperate wheel designs in Mario Kart are still covered seperately despite only having decal differences. I am not objecting to these but Daisy's is literally the only case of differently named moves being used on different characters, in a different list of games, being merged. I'm not arguing that every similar move and object should be merged. I'm arguing that they should stay seperate and Daisy's moves should be seperated too. The establishment of them being different is straight in game, where Daisy Bomber and Peach Bomber have their own pages. Smash in itself is not a traditional fighter either. --Memoryman3 (talk) 12:23, October 20, 2019 (EDT)
That...still doesn't explain the wheels in Mario Kart. One user already explained merging the palette swapped wheels made them uneasy, despite them being identical in every other way. Also, I think being an Echo Fighter is not a good reason to merge the moves, when they are not exactly the same. Fighting game fans do have an inherent bias against clone characters and it ripples everywhere from message boards to tier lists. What benefit is there to keeping Daisy's moves merged, and do they outweigh the drawbacks, if there are even any? I agree though, I don't think I have made my point clear and this proposal is too vague. --Memoryman3 (talk) 12:35, October 20, 2019 (EDT)
That falls apart when you realise that quoted from the wiki itself, The only difference between the Roller and Azure Roller is the azure palette and the gray screw-like rims, surrounded by a yellow outline., Absolutely no stat differences whatsoever. Many wheels in Mario Kart have identical stats, yet they are seperated for consistency. By that precedent, all of Daisy's named specials should be seperated for encyclopedic intergity and a lack of bias. Arguing against it is essentially identical to arguing against WaluigiTime's point of keeping the wheels seperate.--Memoryman3 (talk) 13:02, October 20, 2019 (EDT) I wasn't going to comment further, but here's an Omega Tyrant-style deconstruction. Currently, the wiki does not have a clear set guideline on how similar entites with different names or slightly different entities with the same name should be handled. I agree about most of this propsal being vague. I want to delete it and make a talk page proposal on the relevant article. --Memoryman3 (talk) 13:44, October 20, 2019 (EDT)
As for Star Thwomp and Super Thwomp, it is literally the same entity, but Prima gave it a different name. Peach's moves and Daisy's moves exist together as different entities with OBVIOUS VISUAL DIFFERENCES but function the same. 2 out of 3. That should be enough. --Memoryman3 (talk) 17:12, October 20, 2019 (EDT)
YOU think that's not enough to warrant a split. What about if there are several roller wheels and they each got their own pages. despite having as you put it, only minor differences in the textures. The fact that Peach Blossom and Daisy Blossom only are two moves means that a split wouldn't look messy and unwarranted, because then the seperate content can be covered without making the page look cluttered. That is the point I want to get across, and seeing as how many other extremely similar cases are handled, I think there is a strong, strong personal bias. --Memoryman3 (talk) 06:01, October 21, 2019 (EDT)
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