Editing Talk:Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars bestiary

==Paper Mario==
What are all the enemies of [[Paper Mario]] doing in that list? ôo - {{User:Edofenrir/sig}} 11:18, 1 December 2009 (EST)

:I'm pretty sure that someone didn't finish...ಠ_ಠ--{{User:Gamefreak75/Sig}}
::Yeah, but for such cases we have that nifty little [[Template:Construction|Construction template]] which I just stamped on the article. Seriously, we cannot create articles, leave them half-finished (with false information in them) and then not tagging it with said template. If visitors see this page and spot PM enemies in a SMRPG bestiary, they'll make a heel-face-turn and leave in a flash. - {{User:Edofenrir/sig}} 11:38, 1 December 2009 (EST)
:::Sorry. I started work on this at around 7 in the morning, after having stayed up all night, so I saved with the intent to finish later. I marked the Summary with that information, but adding a Construction tag slipped my mind. The reason Paper Mario enemies are included is because rather than re-type the entire template, I just work off one that's already done. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 12:35, 1 December 2009 (EST)

You should probably hold off on editing this, seeing as there's a proposal about it.--{{User:Knife/sig}} 14:11, 1 December 2009 (EST)

==Missing enemies==
There are quite a number of enemies (and bosses parts) missing from this Bestiary. I don't know if it is because of a Bestiary taken from another source (such as a game guide), but I think it would be a good idea to add those missing enemies in some way. -- {{User:Iamabrawler}} 19:05, 27 June 2013 (EST)

==Isn't is completed==
I check out the list there is no error anymore. I think we should remove that warning. {{unsigned|Tekniknaldo1}}
:The template should stay because the images aren't in a consistent format (all should ideally be .png and static).<br>{{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 16:12, 18 August 2013 (EDT)

== Other Stats ==

While this page may be a bestiary and all, I'm seeing that stats such as coins and items dropped, experience points, element weaknesses and others aren't listed here. Maybe we should have a fully detailed list of enemy stats like the one shown here? 

http://shrines.rpgclassics.com/snes/smrpg/enemies2.shtml

What do you think? --[[User:Zootalo|Zootalo]] ([[User talk:Zootalo|talk]]) 10:00, 3 October 2013 (EDT)

:I don't see why not.

:{{User:YoshiKong/sig}} 10:28, 3 October 2013 (EDT)

== Removing Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars bestiary ==
{{SettledTPP}}
{{ProposalOutcome|red|KEEP 0-9}}

Now that the [[List of enemy stats in Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars]] is basically complete, this bestiary should be deleted. Using a hacking program called Lazy Shell, all the stats from all the (non-dummied) enemies in the game are listed on the new stat page -- including obscure ones such as speed, evade rates, item rates, and others not listed from the Player's Guide and perhaps anywhere else. The statistics there should be as accurate as they come, and what's listed in the bestiary are only the basics.

'''Proposer:''' {{User|Zootalo}}<br>	
'''Deadline:''' November 12, 2013, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#<s>{{User|Gonzales Kart Inc.}} Pointless page, can get rid of it.</s>

===Oppose===
#{{User|Baby Luigi}} I don't understand why we even need a second page of enemy stats when the bestiary will do; just expand or rework the entire bestiary with the existing new stat page and refrain from making a second one. The whole bestiary thing is inconsistent anyway - there is a Paper Mario bestiary, Thousand-Year Door bestiary, and there's list of enemy stats. Moving the page will further break the consistency.
#{{User|Yoshi876}} Per Baby Luigi, also this page goes through the boundaries so it looks less professional than the bestiary.
#{{User|LeftyGreenMario}} Per Baby Luigi, and besides,[[List of enemy stats in Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars|the page you mentioned]] lacks images it needs, so moving the images from the bestiary is going to involve an amount of work.
#{{User|Ultra Koopa}} Per all.
#{{User|Walkazo}} - This page is good the way it is: it shouldn't be deleted, moved or even changed. If you want the extra info about drop items and whatnot, just check the actual enemy pages, because the table with everything is so busy and uses such small text, it's almost unusable (especially if your computer has a small screen).
#{{User|Randombob-omb4761}} Per all.
#{{user|driftmaster130}} Per all.
#{{User|Megadardery}} Per all
#{{User|Icemario11}} Per all.

===Comments===
Besides, the enemy stat page is still very incomplete - it's still missing more than 80% of the sprites. {{User:Baby Luigi/sig}} 19:24, 29 October 2013 (EDT)

@Yoshi876: The page doesn't go through the boundaries at my computer resolution (1920 x 1080). But, ideally, it shouldn't break the boundaries at any resolution. {{User:LeftyGreenMario/sig}} 00:01, 30 October 2013 (EDT)

:1920 x 1080 is too big, and uncommon for most computers. If it ''must'' be so big, at least it should not break the boundaries at (1024 x 768) the lowest common resolution. It even breaks the boundaries at my 1366 x 768 resolution.--{{User:Megadardery/sig}} 16:27, 30 October 2013 (EDT)

Honestly, I originally planned to expand on this bestiary to include the stats not even listed here in the first place (Spells, Strengths, Weak Points, Exp, Coins, etc.), and when I realized that there were also other important ones not even listed on any other site (FP, Speed, Evade and Magic Evade %, Item Drop %, Transformation %, etc.), I decided to make another chart and the stat page without interfering with the bestiary. Of course, since there are so many enemy statistics from this game compared to the other Mario RPGs, the chart's fonts had to be shrunken down to fit everything.<br>If the bestiary is to be expanded upon (or merged), we should have viewers be able to see all these stats on a chart without the need to go to separate pages, but at the same time still be within the boundaries of any computer resolution. Any suggestions? --[[User:Zootalo|Zootalo]] ([[User talk:Zootalo|talk]]) 01:27, 10 November 2013 (EST)

==Icons==
{{talk}}
Every other bestiary solely uses sprites. This one, however, uses artwork when available. While I can understand this, as the spites are prerendered from the same models the artwork uses, it's still quite jarring, as well as inconsistent with itself and other bestiaries. I think it should be entirely sprites, as that's how they appear in-game, and as such, are most recognizeable through them (particularly with ones like [[Lava Bubble|Sparky]], who due to how the sprites worked in those instances only superficially resembled the artwork in-game). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:34, 11 November 2017 (EST)
:Pardon, but which enemies use artwork here? They all look like sprites to me (the only one that's off is Bundt, but [[:File:Bundt the cake thing.png|according to the file description]], it's just a poorly cleaned sprite). {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 00:40, 11 November 2017 (EST)
::When I see these transcluded onto pages, I often see artwork.... [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:43, 11 November 2017 (EST)
:::That's because the images are being added on the individual pages themselves. They're not being transcluded from here. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 00:50, 11 November 2017 (EST)
::::OK then, they should be removed from those infoboxes on those pages, as it creates really bad inconsistencies. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:27, 11 November 2017 (EST)
:::::It's artwork. Not every subject has artwork. Every subject uses the best image that's available to them, regardless of its source. This is true for every game. We are not gimping page quality anytime soon. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 01:32, 11 November 2017 (EST)
::::::Given that when [[Fire Stalking Piranha Plant|this page]] gets a transclusion section, the bestiary box will use the sprite, not the artwork, I couldn't beg to differ more. Also, note how the bestiary pages for [[Fawful]], for example, all use ''sprites'', not artwork, despite their being plenty of art for him as well. It's the exact same thing. It's just very jarring and somewhat cringe-inducing to go onto [[K-9|this page]] and have the bestiary box have artwork and then go onto [[Chow|its recolor]] and have it use a much smaller sprite. It's bad aesthetic to be that inconsistent. The Artwork should go somewhere else on the page. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:29, 11 November 2017 (EST)
:::::::Again, different pages use different types of images for their infoboxes all the time. We're not about to use sprites for every single page just because not all of them have high quality artwork. Should [[Toadbert]] not use artwork because [[Toadiko]] doesn't have any? It shouldn't matter what kind of infobox is being used, especially when the page only has one. If the artwork gives the best impression of the character, why should that be shoved to the side? Lead with your best foot forward. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 10:51, 11 November 2017 (EST)

== Adding links to all entries ==

I noticed on [[Axem Red]]s page that the status conditions he is weak to ([[fear]], [[sleep]], etc) don't have links. I'm assuming this is because on this page, where the bestiary entries are stored, the links to these and many other pages are done early on without repeating the links in every entry. However, this means that on many pages, like Axem Red, there are no links to these pages, even though its the only time its mentioned on that page.

My proposal is to add a link to any and all occasions where there could be a link, so that it appears in the bestiary entries of every relevant page. I would probably be fine with doing this myself if no one else wanted to, but I just want to put it out there before I do all of that work and it gets reversed.

[[User:Pallukun|Pallukun]] ([[User talk:Pallukun|talk]]) 18:56, June 19, 2020 (EDT)

== Clerk, Manager, and Director ==

It has come to my attention that Clerk, Manager, and Director use the "normal enemy battle" music rather than the "boss battle" music. As such, should we consider them to be unique strong enemies rather than bosses? This would be similar to the Pandorite family, but more plot-relevant. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:11, May 31, 2021 (EDT)
:There's one thing I noticed which would make me still consider them as such. After every boss battle, HP and FP gets fully restored. The same happens after beating each of these three guys. It doesn't happen for the chests though. {{User:Keyblade Master/sig}} 05:20, May 31, 2021 (EDT)
::According to [https://tcrf.net/Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars#Unused_Battle_Formations TCRF], the Clerk appears in a few unused battle setups. Thing is, for entities the game considers bosses, other things in the setup won't appear unless the boss is specifically coded to interact with them; see the notes on the setups involving Magikoopa on that link, which was apparently considered an "enemy" at some point but is a "boss" in the final, causing the other enemies to not show up. It seems "helpers," like Bandana Blue, Torte, and Right Eye are exempt from this, but it still indicates the game considers Clerk and the rest enemies. Also, they and Factory Chief have the "popping" defeat animation rather than the "fading" most bosses have (if they don't have a unique event upon defeat, like Bundt or Boomer), indicating Chief is more of a "helper" for Gunyolk (which does have the fading) rather than a boss in his own right. Of course, this also calls into question the Machine Mades (who all have the "weapon boss" music), especially since the MM Axems I'm pretty sure have the "popping" death, unlike the ones for Mack, Bowyer, and Yarid... [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:52, July 9, 2021 (EDT)
::Another note: HP and FP are not restored after the optional solo battles against Dodo (or at least the second one), despite being considered boss encounters. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:39, August 19, 2021 (EDT)
:::May be a two year old discussion, but I may as well mention that the game's remake uses the boss theme for these three battles. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 05:44, November 19, 2023 (EST)

== Peach ==
I heard on Supper Mario Broth's twitter account that, through hacking, Peach can be fought and drops a coin upon defeat. Should this be added? [[User:I&#39;manumber1|I&#39;manumber1]] ([[User talk:I&#39;manumber1|talk]]) 19:04, October 6, 2021 (EDT)

== Better define what constitutes a normal enemy, a boss, and a boss helper ==

{{SettledTPP}}
{{ProposalOutcome|failed|1-0-5|no change}}
From how the game handles each with their respective programming, this is actually very clear-cut:
*Enemies have the normal battle music and "pop" on defeat
*Bosses have special music and fade out upon defeat (or give a cinematic showing something else happening, like Booster eating Raspberry)
*Boss helpers have special music and either "pop" or stop moving upon defeat.
**The attribute of healing the party after battle seems to be more to do with plot-relevant intervals, as it does not happen after all boss fights (such as optional Dodo), and as such is not an actual indicator.

However, this requires some substantial alterations on how we handle certain entities; namely, Smithy Gang members:
*Clerk, Manager, and Director are generic enemies, and Factory Chief is a boss helper to the Gunyolk
*The Machine Made Mack, Bowyer, and Yaridovich are bosses, while the MM Bodyguard, Drill Bit, and Axem Rangers are boss helpers
*The Axem Rangers are themselves boss helpers to the Blade (itself labeled "Axem Rangers" in battle because we can't be non-confusing)

'''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br>
'''Deadline''': <s>April 24, 2022, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to May 1, 2022, 23:59 GMT
====Enact changes====
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per

====Only change Clerk, Manager, and Director====

====Do nothing====
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Towards the end of the Player's Guide, the Handbook for Heroes section describes the game's enemies and major meanies (or bosses). It explains what the difference is here. ENEMIES (106): "''Occasionally, a vanquished enemy will surrender the indicated item. When two items are listed, the odds of winning the first item are much higher.''" "THE MAJOR MEANIES" (112): "''Top enemies will seldom surrender items, but vanquishing them will give you lots of Experience.''" Correct me if I'm wrong, but this means that they have different odds for spoils. Then there's the Shogakukan guide, which has a <span class="explain" title="てき">敵</span>キャラリスト (2) / モンスターリスト (94) for enemies and <span class="explain" title="てき">敵</span>キャラリスト（ボス） (2) / モンスターリスト（ボス） (100) for bosses in the similar "database" section near the end of the book. Like the Player's Guide, it considers the Dodo fights, individual Axem Rangers, Clerk, Manager, and Director to be bosses, and the Machine Mades to be enemies; neither mentions Mack's Bodyguards, which don't have the same stats as normal Shysters, and Shogakukan doesn't mention the Mass Product version or Mokura, which the Player's Guide deems an enemy. To sum it up, the bestiary is pretty close to the game's regional guides. Plus, I think this proposal means that the optional Booster encounter isn't considered a true boss, which doesn't sit right with me and is also against the guides (though his Snifits are deemed enemies).
#{{User|SmokedChili}} If those are the exact lines how the changes will be enacted, then no. This is tripped by Formless/Mokura having special battle music and popping on defeat. Per LTL.
#{{User|Mustard Machine}} Per all.
#{{User|Mario4Ever}} Per LinkTheLefty.
#{{User|Somethingone}} Per LTL. If it's against all official sources, it's probably not a good idea

====Comments====
@LTL If you compare the "coins vs exp" spoils dropped by the bureaucracy to surrounding enemies and bosses on the main SMRPG page, then you'll see they're much closer to the enemies. As for Booster, I forgot he pops since I never do that fight, but considering how that fight works, it seems more like a sequential fight against miniboss enemies immediately prior to the "real" fight against the Clown Bros. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:06, April 10, 2022 (EDT)

== Combine the remake's Monster List and statistical information with this article ==

{{SettledTPP}}
{{ProposalOutcome|cancelled}}
Enemy stats from the original game look like they all carried over into the remake, being enemy HP, spells and attacks, weaknesses and resistances, and Power and Defense. This is unlike the ''Mario & Luigi'' series remakes, which changed a lot of enemy stats meaning it's best for them to have their own statboxes and bestiary pages. With this proposal, I aim to merge [[Monster List]] here and use the in-game icons shown to represent resistances and weaknesses (maybe have a key which the game itself also has), and add the Monster List profiles to the statboxes here. Concerning enemies which have different names, we would include both at the top e.g "Mukumuku / Thropher". For the different thought quotes, which was changed for nearly every enemy in the game, we could add another parameter labeled "Thought Peek" for remake quotes, and keep the "Psychopath" parameter for the original quote.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Swallow}}<br>
'''Deadline''': January 20, 2024, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|Swallow}} Per proposal
#{{User|Sparks}} Per Swallow. Having two different enemy lists is kinda weird considering they have the same stats in both versions of the game.
#{{User|Dark-Boy-1up}} Per proposal

===Oppose===
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Honestly? The fact that there are ''any'' statistical differences (a few of which have been listed in the comments) make me uncertain that this is the right way to go. I feel that a proposal like this should wait until after the remake's bestiary page and templates have been made more like this one for an easier comparison.

===Comments===
How do you propose handling the images, though? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:10, January 6, 2024 (EST)
:Have them side-by-side, most likely. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 18:11, January 6, 2024 (EST)
::Just so people are aware: this [https://sites.google.com/site/supermariorpgspeedruns/switch/misc-stats-and-data datamine page] for the remake has a table with stats for every enemy. At first glance, the enemy stats appear identical from the original version (excluding morph rates from the Yoshi Cookie item)—discounting Breezy Mode/special enemy stats, how would any discrepancies between both versions be listed? --[[User:Zootalo|Zootalo]] ([[User talk:Zootalo|talk]]) 18:28, January 6, 2024 (EST)
:::I assume similarly to the discrepancies between the American and Japanese versions of early Mario & Luigi games.  [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 18:31, January 6, 2024 (EST)
::::I think we could make another statbox for special enemies like how with [[Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam bestiary]] the shiny enemies have their own statboxes. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 18:39, January 6, 2024 (EST)
:::::Would a special enemy statbox be listed right beneath its normal counterpart while still maintaining the Monster List order, then? Also, I wanted to suggest for "completion's sake" if each element, status, and item weakness (Pure Water, Lamb's Lure/Sheep Attack, Yoshi Cookie) should be given their own separate parameters, showing exactly whether the enemy is resistant or weak to them. --[[User:Zootalo|Zootalo]] ([[User talk:Zootalo|talk]]) 18:52, January 6, 2024 (EST)
::::::Yeah, the special enemy statbox would be under the original counterpart (again looking at the Paper Jam bestiary for reference). Yoshi Cookie has its own parameter already, and Pure Water and Sheep items (the latter I never knew existed actually), should be included in the weakness parameter. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 07:17, January 7, 2024 (EST)

What about [[King Calamari]]'s tentacles? Haven't some of their values been swapped? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:21, January 7, 2024 (EST)
:Yes. Terrapins also drop 1 coin and Exp., and the Raspberry part of the Cake boss is now weak to Mute (for some reason...). Incidentally, the enemy evasion rates, and success rates for the Sheep items on the datamine chart mentioned above are listed in numeric values (0-8) that aren't in "percentages"—I honestly don't know what their true rates are, if they still match from the original game (unlike the Yoshi Cookie morph rate). --[[User:Zootalo|Zootalo]] ([[User talk:Zootalo|talk]]) 13:51, January 7, 2024 (EST)