Talk:Metal Mario

Metal Mario is an enemy in Dr. Mario 64, at least that's what it says in the article. Paper Jorge ( Need to tell me something? Go to my talk page.·Contributions·) 20:03, 11 October 2006 (EDT)

Good call. I totally forgot about Dr. Mario 64. He is the final boss of the Wario storyline. Thanks. =) -- Son of Suns

how can i unlock him in MG64??™ I'm happy

Anyone Else Get the I still wanna kill myself thing on this page? It's weird! really! User:Mecha-Boss Unit

Is he unlockable in any other mario sports games? User:Gamer2.1

Doubt it, he's not exactly what I'd call famous Marioguy1 (talk)

Split into "Metal Mario" into two articles

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

split 6-1
This article currently covers two subjects. While related, they are distinct enough to merit individual articles and should therefore be split. These two subjects are the metal form resulting from power-ups, and the character of Metal Mario introduced in the Super Smash Bros. series and seen in other media since. The inclusion of the two on the same article is misleading, and may confuse readers into thinking the Metal Mario character is playable in games that he is not.

Due to this, I suggest we split the two subjects into two different articles. One would describe the general metal form and all characters that have used it, while the other article would only cover Metal Mario as a character that has appeared as a distinct character in multiple media.

Proposer: Redstar (talk)
Deadline: January 19th, 2010, 23:59 GMT

Split into separate "Metal Mario (form)" and "Metal Mario (character)" articles

1. Redstar (talk) - Per proposal.
2. Edofenrir (talk) - Makes sense. In addition it would be better to merge Metal Wario with Metal Form, instead of Metal Mario (provided the Proposal on Talk:Metal Wario passes, of course).
3. MATEOELBACAN (talk) - Per All, I think that the two articles must be separated and have information of their respective games (Ex: Anyone can be Metal in SSBB <.<)
4. Reversinator (talk) Per Redstar.
5. Walkazo (talk) - Per Redstar. Also, if there's a page for the Metal Mario character, Metal Luigi should keep his own character page, with any information pertaining to the form in general going into the Metal Mario form page.
6. Clarkmaster (talk) Per Redstar

Leave un-split

1. Zero777 (talk) I am Zero! Leave it as is, what is metal form is going to say, it probably be a small artile. Zero signing out.

Comments

I was actually probably going to revise this proposal. If the article was renamed "Metal Form", then all the other forms would have to be moved likewise (such as "Fire Form", "Frog Form", etc.) While that is beneficial because the alternate name tag is sort of an eye-sore, it serves its purpose and I'm not sure if anyone would support such a radical change. So, I was just going to try to merge Metal Wario here and add the alternate name tag, then try to split this off into "Metal Mario (character)". However, if you think the term "Form" would be more professional for these types of articles, feel free to say so and I can create a community proposal. Otherwise I'll just revise this proposal. Redstar 03:14, 18 December 2009 (EST)

Hm... It's definitelly an issue that needs to be talked about... However, this decision should not be something solely based on my opinion, so hopefully we will get some other comments here. - Gabumon^(talk) 03:23, 18 December 2009 (EST)

@Zero: Zero, please hold off on voting until we resolve the issue of merging Metal Wario here and whether we change the naming convention for such articles. In any case, the split-off article wouldn't be any shorter than any other form article. Redstar 01:10, 19 December 2009 (EST)

The proposal seemed to have been confusing, as well as rather bloated, so I re-wrote it to clarify what exactly the proposal is attempting to do. Anyone that has voted before, or is considering to vote, please re-read the initial proposal and re-consider your position if you so choose. Redstar 22:07, 22 December 2009 (EST)

@Reversinator: Not really. The information would literally just be split in half. Putting the same information on both pages would be both redundant and off-topic, since information relating to each subject isn't compatible. Redstar 22:35, 22 December 2009 (EST)

@Reversinator: Each article would have about the same amount of information, though composed of different material. This article, on the form, would start with "Metal Mario is a form first introduced in Super Mario 64..." while the other article would start with "Metal Mario is a character based on Mario first appearing in the game Super Smash Bros.." This article would cover all the instances when the player can turn Mario into Metal Mario as a form, while the other article would cover all instances where Metal Mario appeared as a distinct character rather than as a form. Here, let me show you where each of the sections would go:

1. Super Mario 64 and Super Mario 64 DS --> form
2. Mario Golf 64 --> character
3. Dr. Mario 64 --> character
4. Super Smash Bros. --> character
5. Super Smash Bros. Melee --> character
6. Super Smash Bros Brawl --> form
7. Mario Party 7 --> form
8. Mario Strikers Charged Football --> form

As you can see, a near equal amount of information would go on each article. As it stands now, the same article covers both the form and the character, which it simply should not do. If Mario can't turn into Metal Mario, but can face it as a distinct character, then the two shouldn't be considered the same. Redstar 17:11, 23 December 2009 (EST)

Fine, you got me. But what about Metal Luigi? Reversinator (talk)

Metal Luigi the character should keep his own page, with the general Luigi-in-metal-form stuff going on the Metal Mario form page. Same deal with Metal Wario. Also, in Redstar's above list, SSB and SSBM should both contribute information to the "form" page in the same way that SSBB does (Metal Box usage). - Walkazo 01:23, 24 December 2009 (EST)

Redstar's the one who wanted Metal Wario to be merged, so I want his opinion. Hello, I'm Time Turner.

Though Metal Luigi as a character makes for a very short article due to one appearance, it would merit standing on its own for consistency. As for Metal Wario; I don't see any indication of it being anything other than just a form. Redstar 18:02, 24 December 2009 (EST)

Sorry, I had read that Metal Wario made a stand-alone appearance in a game somewhere, but upon further investigation I discovered that you're right: its just a form. - Walkazo 00:33, 25 December 2009 (EST)

I would merge Metal Luigi with the Metal Mario character article, and another thing is; The Metal Luigi article has information about the character and the form(The Mario Party part, if you've read the article). What to do? --Garlic Man (talk)

The stuff about the generic form should be merged, but if the Metal Mario character gets a separate page, so should the Metal Luigi character. - Walkazo 22:23, 16 January 2010 (EST)

I agree, but so far Metal Luigi has only be a distinct character (not a form of Luigi) in SSBM. It'll have for a short article. Redstar 13:47, 18 January 2010 (EST)

Should we re-merge these?

This talk page or section has a conflict or a question that needs to be answered. Please try to help and resolve the issue by leaving a comment.

Since these were split, we have seen Tanooki Mario, Cat Peach, Gold Mario, and MANY more in MKT appear as "distinct" from their non-powerup form. Ergo, keeping these split seems silly now. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:05, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

Metal Mario's a special case, though, since he has the history to back up his appearances, like his appearance in the Mario Golf, Mario Tennis, Dr. Mario 64, and Smash Bros. Honestly, if the aforementioned characters also started appearing regularly as their own thing in more than one game, then perhaps we could argue that but as of now, I think it's fine leaving it the way as it is. Ray Trace^(T|C) 15:08, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

Gold Mario has been appearing frequently as a standalone entity, though. To say nothing of Dry Bowser. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:11, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

Not really leaning one way or the other at the moment, but Metal Mario in this case could be compared to Dr. Mario - he's the only one split because he's the "original" with an extensive history and there's sufficient info to carry an article. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 15:37, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

Dr. Mario's always considered separate, though. (Also there's a metal Dr. Mario :P). Metal Mario in Smash 1 is absolutely a reference specifically to the SM64 form (note how Meta Crystal is based off the Cavern of the Metal Cap), so I'd consider it part of the design history of the concept as a whole, which is what we really should be shooting for. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:59, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

The comparison was in the sense that Dr. Mario is the only doctor form of anyone to get his own page because the others haven't been around nearly as long with a lot less to say about them. It's a similar situation with Metal Mario and the rest of the "forms as unique-ish entities". -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 18:28, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

"Metal Luigi" has an article, though, despite as-a-distinct-entity his only appearance is a tacked-on bit to SSBM's Adventure Mode Metal Mario fight after Luigi's unlocked (and thus, is not truly independent of Metal Mario). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:33, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

Do the characters in Mario Kart Tour even have their own voice clips? Aside from the one-off appearances from Tanooki and Cat guys, do any other alt come with their own set of unique voice clips? Metal Mario has, except for Mario Tennis Open and Mario Sports Superstars, and sometimes, he's just mute altogether. Ray Trace^(T|C) 19:22, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

Dr. Mario and Metal Mario have enough material as separate characters to stand on their own. Can't really say the same for Tanooki Mario in Mario Kart or Dr. Peach in Dr. Mario World. I'm not entirely sure on Metal Luigi. 19:25, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

You're still ignoring that Dr. Mario is still only split from basic Mario, while this is Metal Mario split from what is already Metal Mario. Please note the Dry Bowser comparison, who can be literally Bowser with flesh removed in one game and simply be "an old family friend" in another. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:34, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

Even so, one Metal Mario is a power-up (that isn't even exclusive to Mario, but it's the same pattern as Tanooki Mario) and the other is a separate character from Mario. Both are going to have different attributes. They are two different things with the same name. 19:40, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

They're the same concept, which for a fictional limited-continuity franchise is how we should be grouping things. Again, see my description of the Dry Bowser situation: he can be both explicitly an alternate form of Bowser and explicitly a separate character from him, but we don't have "Dry Bowser (form)" split from "Dry Bowser (character)," nor should we. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:07, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

...Where is it explained they are the same concept, when they act completely different? That is not how we group things. Should we merge Headbonk Goomba with Goomba? They both headbonk and are both Goombas, even though they look different, are named differently, and act differently due to the genre they are found in?

Dry Bowser has pretty much stood as a separate character all on his own, with the only time he appears as a form of Bowser being New Super Mario Bros. In every other instance (at least from my understanding of New Super Mario Bros. 2), he appears as his own character separate from Bowser. So a split wouldn't really make sense there. 21:30, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

3DL, MP10, and BJJ, too. Also, your Goomba thing is flawed: the name here is the same, they look identical (and make the same "clang!" in SM64 and SSB iirc), and act the same in that they are "Mario but heavy." Also, the design histories affect each other, as I have pointed out. Headbonk Goomba was merely a cross-genre behavior callback that used the SMAS SMB castle palette as a subtle nod. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:46, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

I don't think Bowser actually turns into Dry Bowser in 3D Land, Dry Bowser just appears and nothing causes it iirc.

One other thing that is keeping me from agree with this merge is that Metal Mario as a character is specifically Metal Mario. No other character in the Mario games has had a metal counterpart aside from Pink Gold Peach, which is her own thing that... really came from nothing. For the power-up, anyone can become metal in the Mario Party and Super Smash Bros. series, and Wario can become metal in Super Mario 64 DS. Even if you ignore Super Smash Bros., Metal Mario as a character is capable of standing on his own. 22:00, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

Even going off that, I'd say most of those cases can still be merged. The sole exception to that would be Metal Bowser, perhaps, but he could be made a footnote or split off outright (we have a "Super Bowser," after all...and the differing contexts between that and Super Mario aren't too far removed from this). Also, note how circumstance has caused some of our character and species articles (comparable situation IMO) to become merged, like Wiggler, Draggadon, and Dorrie. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:17, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

The article would just be a mess, you really want it to go back and forth between power-up and character? Also, why is Metal Bowser the outlier? That's just as relevant as Metal Zelda, unless there's a non-Smash form I don't know about. 22:22, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

Because Metal Mario still exists in an identical capacity, ergo is the same situation for why Fire Mario covers Fire Rosalina? Metal Bowser is there because of a Mario Party cutscene thing. Also, again, I don't see this as much of a "character" as an "alternative appearance" of Mario, a la Baby Mario appearing alongside normal Mario. He gets his own article, but treating him as a "separate character" from Mario is silly. It's a concurrent alternative take, which is easily cohered with the powerup. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:44, April 5, 2020 (EDT)

Furthermore, the "character/power-up" split is completely arbitrary with Metal Mario's SSBM trophy, which doesn't bother distinguishing the two at least in English. SmokedChili (talk) 10:52, April 6, 2020 (EDT)

Indeed! This means the current setup is in open defiance of Nintendo's own take on the matter. Personally, I don't think that's the right thing to do. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:48, April 6, 2020 (EDT)

Also fun fact, the Metal Mario Spirit from Smash Ultimate, which uses the Mario Kart 7 artwork (from the "character"), is grouped with the power-ups & forms of Mario, like Boo Mario, the Super Star, etc. I doubt even Nintendo today counts them as separate characters, so why should we? I mean that's just my personal opinion. --Metalex123 (talk) 15:22, April 7, 2020 (EDT)

I know this conversation hasn't been brought up in a long time but Metal Mario as in the "character" such as in the Mario Kart games and Mario Tennis Open lacks irises for his eyes as of Mario Kart 7, while games such as Puzzle & Dragons: Super Mario Bros. Edition along with Metal Luigi and Nintendo TOKYO merch that features the Metal Cap beside him, gives the "form" irises. The reason why Gold Mario has irises on his eyes in Mario Golf World Tour is because he is proven to be Mario himself because in his double bogey animation he gets hit by a shell and reverts back to regular/Super Mario and not to mention Gold Mario's voice clips isn't a robotic-like voice but re-used from Mario's. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 23:22, May 6, 2020 (EDT)

And the problem with this is that it follows the same train of logic as "the character Toad is the only red Toad who has a blue vest" despite that being patently false. SM64 Metal Mario lacks eyes whatsoever, making the point moot. Smash Bros. seems to be what "separated" them to begin with, yet their own profiles in them affirm them to be the same. Also, Metal Mario's voice isn't "robotic," it's just warbled. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:33, May 6, 2020 (EDT)

Except Toads are species you aren't wrong that there are more blue vested ones while there is red vested ones too, but of course there is going to be lots of them, because again they are species. There were no Metal Boxes as an item in the original Super Smash Bros. until Super Smash Bros. Melee and neither was it shown that there were multiple Metal Marios like how there is a team of "Marios" let's say, there is only one Metal Mario in that game. Metal Mario in the Mario spin-off games acts the opposite from regular Mario especially his lines differing. Except that is the form that debuted in the game and the model didn't show any outline of the sclera because it was a metal texture over Mario's model and replacing the textures. While Metal Mario the character did have no eyes in Super Smash Bros and Mario Golf because he was a metal texture over Mario's model as well as other textures including the mustache, emblem and buttons, he was given irises "only" in Dr. Mario 64, though that part was because Dr. Mario accidentally ate the Mega Vitamins despite being a form for his final fight, and he is a separate character in that game as a playable which is technically both for this game only and that is without another Mario, rather than a alternate skin along with Vampire Wario, so on top of that, it would conflict and be too debatable to warrant as merge because we may as well mention that Metal Mario is a character and a form on both of the articles which would be confusing and misleading what the article is about. So, other than that, Metal Mario the "character" has lacked irises more often than the form, Metal Mario. I know Metal Mario's voice isn't robotic but I didn't know how to describe it better but still you're right on that there. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 00:03, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

Again, these don't matter. Mario was a toy in Super Smash Bros., so the situation regarding how he relates to Metal Mario in that game is moot. As for his Western addition to Mario Golf, that was also the first game to have Mario alongside Baby Mario, so it's clear they didn't really care about whether the characters were separate so much as having a wide roster. In any case, the point is that this is an arbitrarily split subject when Nintendo themselves explicitly considers them the same. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:23, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

These don't all matter? You just ignored my point with Dr. Mario 64. Well there is such thing as time travel as shown with Mario & Luigi: Partners In Time and also Baby Luigi didn't even appear in that game. So does that make Pink Gold Peach "not" separate despite not appearing as a power-up (if she would ever be) in a game outside of Mario Kart 8 and being alongside Peach, we don't even know if it would be Peach's gold or metal form anyways? Metal Mario has his own voice lines, his voice varies a lot and he has his own traits different from Mario himself. Gold Mario in Mario Golf: World Tour proves he is Mario himself due to reusing the same voice clips as well. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 00:36, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

It doesn't matter because Nintendo, the creator and rights-holder, explicitly considers them the same. Subverting that is, therefore, merely fanon and has no place on here. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:38, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

I'm sorry what? Do you even have full proof, that they are the 100% the same at all? Unless fully proven otherwise, this doesn't make it a fact coming from what you only believe in. Also there is more evidence that Metal Mario is also his own [1]. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 00:45, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

It was stated in the above comments. Melee's trophy describes them as the same thing, while Ultimate's spirits use the "character" artwork in the section where Mario's power-up forms are all amassed. Also, that thing you just linked? Not an official source, so worth absolutely nothing to all this. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:07, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

"In Super Smash Bros., Metal Mario showed up as an incredibly stubborn midlevel boss. That also implies he is his own character too, especially this is referring to Metal Mario just in general. Also Metal Mario's bio on Mario Kart 7 describes him more that he is his own character being refereed to as Mario's "rival". Oh so you're just trying so hard to shut me down by acting like I'm completely wrong. Just because it wasn't taken by an official site doesn't mean they are wrong in fact that is what Metal Mario does in all the info they mentioned, I know Source Gaming you know. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 01:17, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

By virtue of describing the SM64 form and SSB boss in the same blurb (note how the game they list in the bottom thingy is SM64), the SSBM trophy confirms them the same. As for the outside of game MK7 description, again, iterations of the same idea can take multiple forms, but that does not make them a different concept or entity. Metal Mario can be a character or a form, but the point is Nintendo themselves considers them the same thing in either case. As such, so should we, lest we be in open defiance on the official take on the matter. There is no line between character and form in this case. Rather, it's a gradient. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:24, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

I still agree with everyone else that they are both separate and a power-up. This reminds me the opposite way where Nintendo said that King K. Rool's trophy states that Kaptain K. Rool is actually King K. Rool's brother. However, this is regarded as either a mistake by Nintendo, or a tongue-in-cheek joke in the vein of the Mr. L reference in Paper Luigi's trophy. So I find it a bit hard to believe it on Metal Mario's trophy and it could be like that for Metal Mario's spirit too, especially it's just a PNG image they just randomly chosen likely, especially one time Nintendo took a fan sprite image of the Mask Man based from Mother 3 [2] when they had all the resources kept in their archives. The Poison Mushroom is another mistakable example too, it says that it debuts in Super Mario All-Stars in the western releases of Super Smash Bros. Melee, despite Super Mario Bros. The Lost Levels being re-released, the base game but updated for the west, western wise that is true but it's true debut is Super Mario Bros. The Lost Levels and even other Japanese only-game trophies list their actual games in the western release including the Bucket from Mario & Wario and the Monster from 3D Hot Rally and saying Japan-only. It's pretty inconsistent as it is, so it's not entirely accurate to use as the perfect source despite being official games by Nintendo, so until then there needs to be better sources to prove that Metal Mario is really just simply a form and it's too debatable, so until there is full confirmation, they should remain split. Also Metal Mario's series logo in Super Smash Bros for the Nintendo 64 is metallic and that is "only" unique to him. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 02:13, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

Why are you acting like I'm the only one who wants to merge? Metalex said he wanted to. Also, your proof here amounts to a big "what if." While Melee trophies have some mistakes, claiming one for a made-up distinction is not. Also, what does the texture of an icon in a game filled to the brim with early installment weirdness have to do with anything? For that matter, the fact that Meta Crystal is so blatantly inspired by the same mishmash of location traits of thisMedia:Metal Mario Scene Artwork - Super Mario 64.png SM64 artwork makes splitting them further ludicrous. Their design histories would be inseparably entwined if it weren't for the fact that they're the same thing anyways. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:27, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

That's just you two only agreeing and why are you so obsessed with wanting to merge so many articles just because it isn't in your way? Still the trophies and spirits will have mistakes and inaccurate information which doesn't give enough proof regardless if it's right or wrong even if they are pretty good, it's not the best reliable source to use only. I just said, because Nintendo can just simply be using some PNG images found from the internet and that Masked Swordsman fan image can be found online giving evidence that they indeed do take artwork from images online and they I quote "could" just simply chose that Metal Mario because it's a Metal Mario image. I can see where you are coming from with the Meta Crystal stage, but that can be argued that Yoshi himself owns the Yoshi's Island stage in the Smash games despite Yoshi himself not being that "green" Yoshi in the Yoshi's Island games. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 02:47, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

(restarting indent) What? Yoshi is the green Yoshi in the Yoshi's Island games. As stated on his page, any Yoshi may be called "Yoshi" as a character, but it doesn't necessarily make them the same. This is straight from Nintendo's mouth. As for Yoshi's Story, the manual refers to them all as "Yoshi" as in a name. As for Metal Mario here, there hasn't been a single profile that has said anything remotely close to "don't mistake him for Mario with the Metal Cap." You know why that is? Because it's a distinction made-up by fans. Nintendo doesn't acknowledge it because it never existed in the first place. Regardless, acting like subjects can only have one role in gameplay each is very bad for the wiki in such a loose franchise as this. Remember the Miyamoto quote where he likened the cast to a group of actors who had variable roles like in an old Popeye cartoon? Same principle. Metal Mario, like the rest, can be a form or a character whenever Nintendo decides to, and they don't see it as a different entity at all. Also, please get off your high horse regarding agreement, only like two other people spoke in favor of keeping merged and neither of them have said a thing since the Smash profiles detail was brought up. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 10:45, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

I'm in agreement with Doc. For that matter, there is value in reevaluating older approaches such as the "playable appearance=CHARACTER" method, because that was the mantra at a time when the idea was to get as many articles up as possible for the mere sake of search engine traffic and not many predicted things like Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia would happen. Now that the Super Mario Wiki is not such a humble little wiki anymore (and really hasn't been for some time if we're being honest with ourselves), with currently over 23,640 articles and counting, there is simply not much of a need for "the more, the merrier" to be the end-all slogan. To that end, splitting an article between "form" and "character" has even less basis than the "species" and "character" splits preceding it to the point that I'm almost surprised there was never a "Baby Mario (present day)" article. Gamermakerguy, you're acting like the Masked Man spirit wasn't soon corrected (note Mother 3 didn't have character artwork in its final GBA iteration, and other spirits using artwork are presented in higher quality than they previously had been, indicating someone mistakenly thought the custom pixel art was the source image), or that Nintendo wasn't in a very distinct phase where they wanted to hide the fact that Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels was previously released as Super Mario Bros. 2 in Japan (mainly mentioning it offhand in Nintendo Power because rival magazines were proud to say it first and then the Internet made continuing the charade unfeasible). Also, it's laughable to use Source Gaming to prove a point, because I've found there are plenty of times where they present opinion as fact to try to cover up certain biases (such as this infamous piece rationalizing Wario's characterization as mostly the product of localization despite the fact that he nonetheless basically replaces Bowser in his debut appearance, who himself was portrayed silly in stuff like RPGs but is still understood as the main villain) and that author probably casually referenced this wiki. The only place I agree that the Super Smash Bros. series likely made an error is with Kaptain K. Rool, and even then, you admit a Mr. L-esque joke is still the possible explanation (and Ultimate essentially erases it). LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:17, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

Doc, where does it mention that? It can easily be mistaken that the green Yoshi could be Yoshi himself and besides that article needs lots of improvements anyways? Does the manual for Yoshi's Island say that the particular green Yoshi is the character then? No, they refer to "Yoshi" as the name of the "species" which is "a" Yoshi in the Yoshi's Story manual. This is the part where you're making something up without showing me a proper source that "oh Nintendo doesn't acknowledge Metal Mario as a character too" where did they said that? It sounds like you're just trying to make up your own facts without showing very proper proof of it just because you can't accept what I'm telling you. LinkTheLefty, Hey! I know they changed the Masked Man spirit in a later version and I know there was not much artwork which is why they used the sprite of the Masked Man instead, don't act like I'm a complete a moron! Still they used the fan sprite first, however, by accident. You know what else is laughable about!? It's where you're also being a complete jerk towards me thinking I'm some kind of joke for showing the closest source I could find. That's real nice of you to make fun of me...wow --Gamermakerguy (talk) 13:01, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

Yoshi's Story manual. "Yoshi doesn't need air while swimming." "Yoshi's proudest move." "You can aim Yoshi's tongue." "If something is discovered, Yoshi will tell you." "The size of the explosion will change depending on Yoshi's Mood." "Did you learn how to operate Yoshi?" "This indicator will show you Yoshi's Mood. When he eats yummy food, his Mood gets better." Need I go on? There's plenty more times they use it like that there. Also, you're massively projecting. You have been nothing but massively condescending to me for the entire time you've been in this debate. You're demanding a specific instance of proof for Nintendo not saying something while providing at best laughably biased sources yourself. That's not how burden of proof works. Anyways, if that is indeed the closest source you can find, maybe the takeaway should be to reconsider your stance. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:26, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

For the record, Gamermakerguy, when I say using that source is "laughable", I'm directing my comment towards the (in my opinion) overrated fan-site with a history of editorializing, not at you. LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:17, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

Well you have been using your own bias against me and acting like you're right at everything and using it like it's a fact to you just for you to try so desperately hard to prove me wrong. Well, I already find it laughable that you not only find my source not good "to you" but your so "called" proper sources are also not even accurate enough either and is debatable in different games and my source isn't really that great either, so what else do you want me to show a random Wikipedia article? --Gamermakerguy (talk) 13:42, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

We can do without the call-outs and insults. You are capable of having a discussion without using them. 13:51, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

...my sources have been in-game descriptions and manual scans. What more do you want? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:02, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

Well some profiles say otherwise for the character Metal Mario including Metal Mario's profile on the official Mario Kart 7 site, especially in the games he says corrupted words that Mario himself never says. If Mario did say those. I would've believed it more to be a form. Especially Gold Mario in New Super Mario Bros. 2 has his voice clips the same as himself and for what I said in Mario Golf World Tour, finally, Gold Mario shares Metal Mario's voice clips in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe --Gamermakerguy (talk) 14:12, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

And we don't consider the form/character Gold Mario separate from each other. Also, the MK7 profile doesn't mean it's a separate entity; indeed, he acts as a rival for that game. He's not like Metal Sonic where it's an actual recurring rival character. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:16, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

The thing is Gold Mario is a direct skin to Metal Mario in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe and Mario Kart Tour further implies that Metal Mario is also an entity since he is just called "Metal Mario" rather than "Metal Mario (Mario)", Gold Mario obviously isn't separate, despite having his own slow in Mario Golf: World Tour and as I've said, Gold Mario in that game is confirmed to be Mario himself because his Double Bogey Animation shows him getting hit by a shell and he reverts to Super/Regular Mario and Metal Mario is not in the game, which Gold Mario is proven to be an upgraded character to unlock by DLC, kind of like Ultra Barrel DK from Donkey Kong Barrel Blast who is an upgraded Donkey Kong. LinkTheLefty...my bad, sorry I was made fun of a lot and hold bitterness towards to this day, sorry for the misunderstanding and getting mad at you there, but now that I think about it you aren't wrong about them, especially there "rate that character for Smash" videos they make and I love how they made it a low percentage chance for Daisy to appear even though she got in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate which is laughable. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 14:24, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

Well it already has a specific name, like Ice Mario. And by the same token, Gold Mario isn't "Metal Mario (Gold Mario)" either. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:48, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

"Ice Mario appears as a variant to Metal Mario due to sharing the same animations as him and lacking irises (although they still can be seen in his artwork, which is reused from Super Mario Galaxy), but has the same voice clips as regular Mario's (albeit with a harsher reverb)" which is different from Mario himself at least. All of the other Mario costumes that isn't Metallic-like still uses regular Mario's voice clips based from the regular Mario's base. To be honest, they could've also called him "Metal Mario (Gold)" but either of those names from the previous messages of our naming for Metal Mario would've been rather misleading and off-putting implying they would be the same exact thing/power-up from their playable base while Gold Mario and Ice Mario is only a selectable variant to Metal Mario which the power-up forms obviously aren't the same. Like how I called Metal Mario, Gold Mario (Metal Mario) which would be too much of text space and a mouth full to say, likely from being too long on the profiles and menus. Especially since Metal Mario the form came first before both the character and the Gold Mario power-up and variant of the Metal Mario character. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 17:00, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

So? I'm not suggesting to merge it with Mario. Metal Mario uses different animations from normal Mario due to those being recycled from MK7 and MK8, where there wasn't a situation of half the roster being variants. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:47, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

I never said you were wanting the character Metal Mario to be merged with Mario himself and besides it would be extremely cluttered since Mario's article is quite huge. That still doesn't change the fact that it's his own animations while differing from regular Mario and they are different from each other in Mario Kart 7/8/8 Deluxe from the start regardless if it was recycled into a new game or not. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 18:33, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

That has literally nothing to do with whether this page should be merged with the split Metal Mario. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:36, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

"So? I'm not suggesting to merge it with Mario.", well neither for what you just said there. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 18:53, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

The analogues for which you are bringing up suggest I am attempting to merge this with Mario as your argument seems to be that he is not treated as a variant of Mario in MK animations. However, I want to merge the Metal Mario articles together. Another example I've brought up is Dry Bowser. He can be both a skeletonized Bowser and "a family friend," yet he has only one article. This should be no different from that. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:02, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

Tanooki Mario and Baby Mario have their own voices once again, while Tanooki Mario in Mario Kart 8/Deluxe uses different voice clips they are regular still Mario's. Metal Mario in the spin-offs does NOT use any of regular Mario's clips otherwise that would seem believable that it's only a form. Omg...I NEVER said you were merging this article to Mario's, cut it out already! I was just making a statement. The difference between the "separate" and "form" of Dry Bowser is that the form is a undead skeletal form of Bowser when he falls in lava that's part of him already and both this separate and form are 100% identically the same in appearance while the "character" and "form" of Metal Mario has no irises and does so respectively in the current games. Keep in mind that Bowser himself can also clone himself since the very beginning that he debuted as he makes fake copies of himself (especially we can't tell if Pom Pom is a species there is more of her/them but they could be her clones she creates from Super Mario 3D World). --Gamermakerguy (talk) 20:05, May 7, 2020 (EDT)

You never said it, but the arguments you were making would only work if I was. Anyways, the eyes are clearly a stylistic choice, Dry Bowser was referred to specifically by Bowser as "an old family friend" in one game (as said in his own article), and Tanooki Mario is just further proof that this page being split is inconsistent with everything else. Anyways, please remember the "no distinction between character and species of same name in Japanese language of origin" principle, too. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:09, May 8, 2020 (EDT)

I've said this before, but Japanese naming does not mean much, especially since the Metal Marios have the same name in Japanese and English. Two subjects can share the same name, we split or merge based on characteristics. Playable Metal Mario is far more vast than the power-up, and merging them would just make the page look messy in my opinion, going back and forth between playable and power-up. Just because they have the same name does not mean they are the same thing.

The irises are kind of a weak point, though. That doesn't really determine anything. 01:16, May 8, 2020 (EDT)

While I'm aware of the Japanese and English rule, the two Ice Mario's especially have the same Japanese names and function completely different, not even the one from Super Mario Galaxy shoots Iceballs (not counting Ice Mario in Mario Kart Tour shooting Iceballs from the Ice Flower which comes from the NSMBWii version of the item itself) despite the Ice Flower first appearing in M&L:PiT allowing the ability to shoot Iceballs before SMG changed its function completely, even recent merch is using SMG Ice Mario rather than NSMBWii's version with the 2D merch, Also about Tanooki Mario, Metal Mario the character is also one of the main bosses in some games, notably in Super Smash Bros., none of the other powered-up Mario's are actual bosses. So far Tanooki Mario and Cat Peach have only been there to fill a slot only in ONE game. While Dry Bowser both the form and character is an actual boss which makes more sense to have it be one article. As for the eyes I got nothing to say about that minor part anymore. But I agree that merging the two Metal Mario articles would be messy and even more misleading. Because we may as well make both Ice Mario's also merge just because they are both called Ice Mario even in other regions including Japan are named the same but are way too different. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 01:46, May 8, 2020 (EDT)

Honestly, I feel the Smash Bros. thing amounts to "he was a cool thing from an iconic recent game" that sorta became an artifact afterwards. Sorta like Jigglypuff's continued existence in those games. And @Alex, how about Meta Crystal's blatant callback to the Metal Cap Cavern? That to me indicates they are indeed intended as an alternate take on the same thing. (Like how Mario in Donkey Kong Jr. is "an alternate take on the same thing as Mario.") It's up to Nintendo's discretion whether it's a form or a distinct entity. And of course, there's the Melee trophy and Ultimate spirit. If Smash is what made them different, why are they so gung-ho about them being the same? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:57, May 8, 2020 (EDT)

So does that make Pink Gold Peach not a separate entity despite being made of a type of metal and having no power-up origin then? If she ever ended up as a power-up afterwards (if that will ever happen, lol) you wanting to merge them just because it gets a power-up form despite being a character first then? What does Jigglypuff have anything to do with it? It's a playable fighter and one of the original twelves that appears as a veteran in every Smash game like the other eleven. If "teh" Metal Mario was an artifact at the time why did Metal Mario end up getting a slot in Mario Golf for himself making it "his" Mario franchise debut "after" Super Smash Bros, it makes a big difference for him to appear outside from Smash and of course Dr. Mario 64 while years later returning to Mario Kart 7 then? Smash's trophies and spirits and are already a mess especially for what I explained about K. Rool's trophy, the Poison Mushroom and the Mr. L trophy errors. The character Metal Mario was inspired by a very famous power-up, it's that iconic and a similar situation to how Fake Crash from the Crash Bandicoot series is inspired by poorly made plushes which is where he was made and the character Metal Mario which he represents the Meta Crystal representing the inspiration elements from the Cavern of the Metal Cap. It's not exactly the same place but just "inspired" by it to just simply make a reference. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 02:36, May 8, 2020 (EDT)

Mr. L wasn't an error, it was a joke. Poison Mushroom was a last-ditch attempt at covering up Lost Levels being Japanese SMB2. K. Rool was likely an error, but that was just one thing in one game, unlike what I listed (which persists to the present day with Ultimate). Pink Gold Peach isn't really applicable here, since unlike Cat Peach, it adds a further differentiator with the "Pink" identifier. Mario Golf had Baby Mario (and also Metal Mario was an American addition), which combined with it having Smash-esque multiplayer recolors shows that they didn't really care who was "separate." I brought up Jigglypuff because it's another example of a character who solely reappears due to appearing in the original; Jigglypuff hasn't been relevant as an entity for decades, but was a new thing then, like the Metal-head. Metal Mario in Dr. Mario 64 was a transformation, from a different "power-up." Trash Bandicoot was, as you said, inspired by a licensed toy, and as such is merely a jab at the design of some grotesque parody. Heck, on the subject of Crash, I'd say the appearance of Twinsanity's "Evil Crash" in Tag Team Racing as a costume would count as a cameo of the character. And yes, while Meta Crystal isn't the Metal Cap Cavern itself, the fact that it derives inspiration is clearly a context clue towards its denizen being the same thing. Basically, what it amounts to "Nintendo has said they're the same thing, and hasn't said they're different." Therefore, saying they're different is in open defiance of the only official word we have. Which is a bad thing to do. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:47, May 8, 2020 (EDT)

I don't quite get how Meta Crystal being similar in design to the Metal Cap Cavern proves anything one way or the other. As far as this debate is concerned, it only proves that, assuming he does in fact exist for the sake of this argument, Metal Mario the character is Metal Mario the form now as a unique entity, which should already be obvious. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 21:40, May 8, 2020 (EDT)

Still, the Poison Mushroom trophy was inconsistent compared to the other obscure Japanese elemental trophies that actually mark "Japan only" even if they seemingly were hiding it for the Lost Levels in the west. Also after doing some research, the trophies actually have quite a bit of errors and inconsistencies even I compared the trophy galleries in a trophy gallery video for each Smash game until Brawl (which is why I took long to reply) with this post to make sure it was legit, this is showing that trophy info isn't really that reliable to use as the #1 source, especially it can also be from poor translating from the games being made from Japan. While not listed on the site that shows a list of trophy errors, the Metal Box trophy has an error, despite being replaced by red ? Blocks in Super Mario 64 DS, the Super Smash Bros. for Wii U trophy lists the game as one of the Metal Box's appearances, it's like as if they are treating them the same even though they aren't especially different blocks, only Wario can get Metal power from hitting the ? Blocks in the DS remake and they sure never said they are different for some reason...? I'm aware that Metal Mario only appears in the western releases of Mario Golf (Which applies the opposite where Fake Crash appeared in the infamous Crash Bash for Japan only as a playable), Baby Mario isn't a power-up or even based from one which is comparing apples to oranges from the Metal Mario situation here, though yes he is also Mario but from the past, while M&L: PiT shows time travel is part of the series, even in general media of different games and shows, especially in the Luigi's Mansion games having time travel, Baby Mario is also representing the Yoshi's Island games way more specifically, especially being paired with Yoshi in the Mario Golf intro and the duos courts for Mario Tennis. The Mario series never made sense for that part aside anyways for the time travel. So? What does that make for the likes of Yoshi then? Despite being both his character (being "a" green Yoshi) and species. What I did say is true that Dr. Mario accidentally ate the mega vitamins and became who I prefer calling but I know his name is "Metal Mario" in the roster and to fit text space "Dr. Metal Mario", but for one, this is the only game and it hasn't showed something like this again since and this also happened to Wario to become Vampire Wario and compared to the "character" Metal Mario, Vampire Wario has no relevance these days since the form never appears, especially being abandoned in Wario Land 4 those replacing it as "Vampire Bat Wario" unlike Metal Mario is more recurring as a boss even outside Smash or a simple rival to fight. You're right about the cameo for Evil Crash of Tag Team Racing and Fake Crash's origins. Indeed the Meta Crystal does serve inspiration to the two locations I mentioned previously from Super Mario 64, that doesn't equally confirm that is indeed Metal Mario as a form. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 00:34, May 9, 2020 (EDT)

I fail to see why power-up should be treated different from any other alternate form (and besides, Miyamoto originally wanted the caped Baby Mario to be the fully grown Mario). Anyways, the Meta Crystal proves that this Metal Mario is derived from the SM64 concept, and due to having the same name in all languages and soundbytes in that game, it's honestly kinda ludicrous to split those over role. "Time Travel" isn't really the case here; the games each exist in whatever level of continuity they want at any given time. That Metal Box I'd say is an error (provided they didn't just mean "box with a metal-granting powerup in general regardless of design" which is a distinct possibility), but the use of Metal Mario (character)'s artwork for spirit when they could have used the SM64 Metal Mario art can't be a coincidence. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:56, May 9, 2020 (EDT)

Just to clarify, almost every legitimate trophy error can be chalked down to a minor localization oversight, not really at any noticeably higher rate than usual. Even some of the follow-up posts in that link admit that some of the original observations are reaching. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:11, May 9, 2020 (EDT)

You just basically brought up a scrapped design of a form and not relevant unless it happened. It's only Metal Mario that is his own character. It could also fit to the ascetic of the area too and even if it seems closely inspired doesn't equal as fact even if the Japanese names are 100% the same things. U,h the artwork can always be a coincidence for the spirit and using the old artwork would clash with the other power-up forms of Mario anyways and Metal mario the "character" is the closest Metal mario artwork that is modern to this day, besides none of the Mario power-ups are using old artwork and even Fox Luigi is over Raccoon Mario. The spirits aren't even consistent either, for some reason Toad can be enhanced to become Captain Toad even though there is more sources that they are different characters and easily can be mistaken to each other because "Captain" in front of Toad and having similar voices. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 01:21, May 9, 2020 (EDT)

I'm saying it woulda been sort of a power up, but my main point was "alternate forms in general should be treated equally." Metal Mario from Smash 64 is intended to be SM64 Metal Mario; this is absolutely self-evident and you can't say otherwise without writing around obvious visual cues. The argument regarding artwork source doesn't work either, as those too are from all over, and if they considered them different they wouldn't use someone else's artwork, period. As for Cap, in Puzzle & Dragons, Boos could be turned into King Boos (yes, in the plural), so that doesn't amount to anything. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:50, May 9, 2020 (EDT)

But it's not used either way, so that's out of the question. Except all the other forms don't point it to also being a character, just Metal Mario having a power-up like entity. How is Metal Mario in Smash 64 the metal form from SM64 that's not even fact even for the way you make it seem, Metal Mario is silent, he doesn't reuse Mario's clips while the form does in SM64, does he reuse Mario's voice clips like the form from SM64"? no, can Kirby copy his powers?, no, can you damage this Metal Mario? yes, the SM64 form is invincible to every attack in the game. The Metal Box or something else isn't even an item in SSB if it was it would certainly be believable for me to agree with you. The spirit is just Metal Mario in general! Besides both the character and form are identical, just like confusing a Green Yoshi with Yoshi or a red Toad with a blue vest being both a character and a vest (Toads first appeared in the first Super Mario Bros., while the character debuted in Super Mario Bros. 2 himself). That was only done for gameplay purposes in Puzzles and Dragons: Super Mario Bros Edition, other than that King Boo and Petey are not actual "confirmed" species. Same for the two "Peteys" in Hoops 3-on-3. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 02:35, May 9, 2020 (EDT)

iirc, SM64 and Smash 64 both use the same "metal clang" noise. And this isn't like those, where there's a whole species of nearly identical individuals, this is the same concept interpreted multiple ways. As for Baby Mario, what points to that being less of a character than Metal Mario? Or Dry Bowser in Bowser's case? For that matter, in Melee, Bowser still has to fight Giga Bowser in sufficiently-difficult Adventure Mode, and barring cheats that couldn't be played as until Brawl. And given that the Bowser fought before is a recolor Bowser in the case you're playing as normal color Bowser, one could easily consider Metal Mario in those games to be a recolor-type Mario clone with a few extra difficulty modifications. Like Giga Bowser. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:52, May 9, 2020 (EDT)

Can you answer this

Mario Kart 7 explicitly states that Metal Mario is Mario's rival, and I interpret the trophy "mid-level boss" as also a separate character and also happens to be recurring. Also what do you have to say about the slightly different speech difference, "Mia Mama" and "oh, papa" (opposed to the usual "mama" from the Italian boys). No other powerup form has this sort of thing. Cat Peach would say cat related things, but I don't hear her say things completely irrelevant to what form she's in unlike Metal Mario. If Fire Mario would to say something like "Go a let's!" or Pink Gold Peach would say "aidez moi" randomly wouldn't that be some sort of weird hint of a different character? It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 21:34, May 8, 2020 (EDT)

To add to the Cat Peach thing, the unique cat quotes are already something that the characters do in 3D World when they get their cat forms, so it's not something unique to Mario Kart that can be used to handwave Metal Mario's quotes. Speaking of unique quotes, Metal Mario specifically calls himself "Metal Mario" in MK8 matching Pink Gold Peach, which Cat Peach and Tanooki Mario don't. Admittedly Deluxe muddies the waters a little bit since Gold Mario also calls himself "Gold Mario", though it could also be argued that since Gold Mario is already closer to a variant of Metal Mario than Mario in that game, it actually is Metal Mario somehow using the gold form and not Mario himself. Honestly I was leaning toward merging but now I'm against it unless these questions can be answered. At the very least it seems that right now the Mario Kart series portrays him as some sort of warped version of Mario, which wouldn't make sense if it was just Mario wearing the Metal Cap. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 22:08, May 8, 2020 (EDT)

Again, I ask: Why should Dry Bowser and Baby Mario be treated any different? Dry Bowser can apparently simultaneously be Bowser in another form and merely a family friend, yet not get an article split. Why should this be any different? Basically, to do things consistently, we either split those or merge these. Since I prefer to look at this loosely constructed franchise from an abstract, concept-oriented perspective, it's a no-brainer which solution I prefer. Attempting to make distinctions based off occasional alternative roles is just better than putting outright headcanon on here in my opinion. And, once again, Nintendo explicitly considers these the same, even if they tried (and failed) an edginess upgrade in MK7 (I'm also curious if the description part of that was a localization flavorization....). Another thing on Smash! Bowser's bluish recolor is officially considered to be the same entity as Bowser's Brother, so he can be both "an alternate texture of the same character" and "a different character" concurrently as well. This additionally could lead to a hypothetical situation where, say, Cosmic Mario (so far only given a "rival" role) could appear as a recolor, and odds are, they'd consider that to be Cozzy as well. Metal Mario basically exists in a state where he's both an offshoot and a variant at once, but is still explicitly the same entity as each other. Since there's no canon, there need be no consistency, but that doesn't give us the authority to defy Nintendo's only explicit take on the matter to make things allegedly "easier to sort." Furthermore, Mario Hoops had multiple Petey Piranhas at once while Puzzle & Dragons allowed normal Boos to turn into King Boo, and while those were made out-of-house, HAL Laboratory isn't exactly Nintendo itself, but merely a subsidiary. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:42, May 8, 2020 (EDT)

Where exactly does Mario Kart 7 call Metal Mario a "rival"? Judging from the list of Metal Mario profiles and statistics, it was apparently only stated on the North American website, but not the European equivalent. The Japanese version is much closer to the latter where it does not mention any particular relation to Mario: 「鋼鉄の見た目の通り重量級。トップスピードには自信があります。」 (The steel appearance suggests a heavyweight. Shows confidence in top speed.) "Metal Mario is Mario's rival" may be on the same level as "Princess Daisy is Peach's cousin". LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:17, May 9, 2020 (EDT)

So you keep saying "Nintendo explicitly considers them the same", but is that actually something they've ever come out and said or is that just you coming to your own conclusions? The only bios I can find are MK7, MK8, and Melee, where MK7 says he's a unique character, Melee mentions both the form and the character but leaves it ambiguous, and MK8 is just useless. You also haven't really acknowledged how the "warped Mario" portrayal in Mario Kart factors into this and just brushed it off as irrelevant. As far as Dry Bowser/Baby Mario goes, in my opinion those are a different type of form than power-ups. Dry Bowser has always been a character since his debut and not Bowser just making use of some sort of skeleton power-up that other characters have access to or something. Not to mention splitting him would be a mess since there's really no way to consistently tell if it's skeleton Bowser or Bowser's skeletal family friend. If he never shares screentime with Bowser himself, does that make him Bowser? Or do we have to explicitly see Bowser turn into Dry Bowser? And then there's Mario Kart Wii to further complicate things, where we obviously don't see Bowser turn into Dry Bowser and they can both potentially appear at the same time, yet all of Dry Bowser's bios for that game confirm that he's Bowser's skeleton here. Splitting him would just be more trouble than it's worth and only end up confusing readers.
Moving on to Baby Mario, same thing applies where he's always been a unique character and not just a power-up form. And again, what makes him Mario as a baby or Baby Mario? Saying he's only Mario as a baby when he doesn't appear with adult Mario doesn't work because of Partners in Time. Even if you add that as an exception, there's still Double Dash, MK8, Mario Superstar Baseball which acknowledge the weirdness of them appearing at the same time, Mario Kart Wii and Superstar Baseball which reference Baby Mario's appearance in the Yoshi's Island series implying that they're the same character, Melee which explicitly says Baby Mario in the sports games is the same as the one in the Yoshi games, and while not very solid evidence but still worth bringing up, Brawl and Smash 4 which talk exclusively about his Yoshi's Island appearances while using his current appearance with the overalls on the trophy. Not only is splitting them even messier than Dry Bowser, but... Nintendo doesn't even seem to think there's two Baby Marios. Heck, we've all seen Partners in Time and the weirdness with adult Mario and Bowser appearing in Yoshi's New Island, how do we know the babies aren't just straight-up time traveling rather than unique entities of their own?
Meanwhile, we have Metal Mario, the first appearance of a character in powered-up form portrayed as a unique entity, predating the further usage of this concept by 15 years. Unlike those later power-up characters in sports games, Metal Mario has unique aspects to him that don't really make sense at all if he was just metal Mario as of his appearance in MK7, and the concept even spun off into everyone's favorite character Pink Gold Peach. Is splitting them a complicated mess? Not really, the only bios we have explicitly say he's different or leave it ambiguous. If anything Puzzle & Dragons is the complication here, but given the nonexistence of any spinoff characters in that game, all the powered-up Marios (and Luigis, who also gets a metal form in that game) that are already there, and the lack of the lack of irises which Metal Mario as a character has almost always had, I think it's clear that it's powered-up Mario here. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 12:28, May 9, 2020 (EDT)

Melee talking about both as one entity is every bit ass valid as the Baby Mario trophies you mentioned. I fail to see how the examples here are any different. I could just as easily ask why we only consider Metal Mario the "form" if Mario is shown turning into him. Much like you said with Dry Bowser, there are so many appearances in spinoffs that it's really wishy-washy and the splittings that the article have gone with are arbitrary. Why is the "Mario Golf" Metal Mario separate from Mario when the game's sequel had both Bowser Jr. and Shadow Mario as separate entities? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:27, May 9, 2020 (EDT)

I personally read Melee's trophy as being ambiguous about whether they're supposed to be the same entity or just two iterations of the same concept, but admittedly that's up to interpretation (though for what it's worth, the trophy only names "Metal Mario" specifically when talking about Smash). For comparison, Metal Mario's trophy just happens to talk about both versions in the same paragraph, while Baby Mario's trophy specifically states "Since then, Baby Mario's been spotted on golf courses and tennis courts". Your point about how we consider Metal Mario the form vs. the character in the first place is valid, but since it's specifically a power-up I don't think it's that much of a stretch to only consider it a form when it's specifically shown being used as one. As for Shadow Mario, I'll admit I don't really have an answer for that, though Shadow Mario was only in one game while Metal Mario's had a more extensive spinoff history. I personally don't think the Metal Mario splits are arbitrary, but even if they were, it's not like the case of Dry Bowser and Baby Mario where there's so many bios muddying the waters that there's no sensible way to split them out, the most logical being a very confusing "split if game/bio confirms it's this version". Also, fun fact I noticed while looking information up for this comment: Metal Mario, despite not appearing in the game, is given a mention on the score card in the Game Boy Color Mario Golf, alongside a few other golfers from other games in the series (and Link), which strikes me as odd if he wasn't a unique entity. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 15:29, May 9, 2020 (EDT)

Scorecard's probably just filling itself out with characters from the other version. The scorecards shouldn't be taken seriously anyways, when in most of them (particularly TT), they were filled with characters and generic species (and sometimes obstacles) that have no anatomical way to feasibly play golf. I'd consider MM's Melee trophy flip/flopping on which version it's talking about with no real line between just as big an indicator as Baby Mario's description. As for MM's spinoff history, I feel it's just as ambiguous per instance as Shadow Mario is in that one and Dry Bowser's snarl of bios. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:41, May 9, 2020 (EDT)

LinkTheLefty, only the Prima guides for Mario Kart: Double Dash!! and Mario Kart Wii state that Daisy is Peach's cousin and they make these kind of mistakes, Nintendo including the official sites never said any of that kind of info as far as I know. --Gamermakerguy (talk) 01:49, May 10, 2020 (EDT)

Nintendo of America's official site for Mario Kart Wii listed Nimbus Land as Birdo's home, even though she is removed once Valentina is (and Nintendo allegedly not being allowed to use SMRPG things) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:57, May 10, 2020 (EDT)

I don't think it should be lost on anyone here calling Metal Mario a rival was a one-time, one-region instance that just so happened to occur after the wiki split the article between form and character. This isn't even language-specific since Nintendo of Europe was, at least at the time, making some of their own English translations independent of Nintendo of America that were generally closer to Nintendo of Japan (e.g. Bowser's Minions), and indeed, the version without the mention of a rivalry is applicable to most of the world. In a way, it's almost like how the Parabuzzy situation was literally the English localization versus the rest of the world, except in this case there already exists an alternate translation that is both closer to the Japanese text and still available (note the North American Mario Kart 7 website was revamped and the older version with the rivalry statement is only partially viewable with an archive). I'll posit further that the above proposal, especially with the Metal Mario article in its state at the time, would most certainly not have passed today - the only examples of Metal Mario apparently as a character were two Super Smash Bros. series appearances, of which was a significant factor in the split but overall coverage later started to be limited, Mario Golf for N64, which is a spinoff where anything goes as playable, and Dr. Mario 64, which is simply mistaken since the initial split was not aware that Metal Mario appeared as a form of Dr. Mario within the context of the game's story (and claiming it's both as is currently the case is pushing once and only once). Lastly (and this is just my personal experience), I've always found the negativity against certain oddities within older Prima Games guides to be overblown when there are many times I find them to be more useful than a Nintendo Power equivalent. LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:11, May 10, 2020 (EDT)

Merge the Metals

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This split is based on little more than speculation. The Melee trophy describes both variably, the Ultimate spirit uses the "character" artwork in the context of the form, and even the original Meta Crystal had enough visual cues to Hazy Maze Cave to be just coming short of hitting you over the head with "this is that cool Metal Mario from SM64." The source for him being Mario's "rival" is from a since-replaced bio on one region's site, and as such is a supplemental assumption comparable to PRIMA claiming Daisy is Peach's cousin. Additionally, in Dr Mario 64, Mario turns into Metal Mario in Wario's story, but the two can separately battle in a different mode (and I don't see a "Vampire Wario (character)" article to balance that). On that note, Tanooki Mario and Gold Mario have since become recurring characters separately playable from normal Mario, yet they don't get a split. Additionally, Tanooki Mario also gets soundbytes separate from normal Mario, so Metal Mario's occasional distorted sentence-mixing is also not that special (particularly given some games have him mute or simply making "clang" noises). Another note is Dry Bowser; he can be both Bowser himself with the skin melted off and simply "a family friend," yet only gets one article, and very distinctly altered soundbytes, like MK7-onward Metal Mario.

What I'm ultimately saying is it doesn't matter if he's depicted as a different form of the same character or a separate entity: He's still Metal Mario. Heck, the first game to have him as a separate entity also had separate player characters via the fightable recolors (which he also is with added physics and soundbyte differences...like in SM64). I'll include an option to include Metal Luigi from Melee too, since that's as relevant as Metal Wario in SM64DS.

Proposer: Doc von Schmeltwick (talk)
Deadline: June 21, 2020, 11:59 PM (GMT)

Merge the Metal Marios and Metal Luigi

1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) I'm a metal head, a metal head, a metal head, a metal head... (per proposal, primary option)
2. Duckfan77 (talk) Per proposal.

Merge the Metal Marios but not Metal Luigi

1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) ...I'm a metal head, a metal head, a metal head, a metal head! (per proposal, secondary option)

Oppose

1. Waluigi Time (talk) I feel the Mario Kart series is key here. Yes, other powered-up characters get unique voice clips, but when they do they either make sense for what form is being used (Cat Peach) or aren't out of character at all (Tanooki Mario). Metal Mario's bizarre quote warping doesn't fall under either of these categories, and I feel this point has been insufficiently addressed or handwaved. I will agree that I don't feel the Dr. Mario 64 appearance has a place here, though.
2. Toadette the Achiever (talk) Per Waluigi Time.
3. Alex95 (talk) - Per my reasons, I'm standing by them.
4. TheDarkStar (talk) - per all

Comments

@Waluigi Time Problem is, s'far as I can tell, that's unique to MK7-onward. Smash games always had him totally mute, like the original form. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:55, June 7, 2020 (EDT)

The trait being added later doesn't make it any less important, especially when this is how Nintendo most recently portrayed him. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 15:08, June 7, 2020 (EDT)

Could say the same about voice acting in general. Additionally, there's the Dry Bowser comparison I'm going to add now; his clips are distorted too, and varies between explicitly the same and explicitly different from Mario. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:10, June 7, 2020 (EDT)

I've already discussed why I don't think Metal Mario and Dry Bowser (or Baby Mario for that matter) are easily comparable and I'm sticking with it, however I will address the voice clips since it's a new point. The mere fact that Metal Mario has a filter on his voice clips alone would be an incredibly flimsy reason to justify a split. I'm primarily concerned with the dialogue itself, which is not only new but out of character for Mario. Therefore, I don't think Dry Bowser similarly having distorted clips is relevant here. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 15:17, June 7, 2020 (EDT)

I don't think "saying words in a different order" counts as really "out of character." It's still Italian statements of surprise. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:20, June 7, 2020 (EDT)

It's not just that he's saying them in a different order though, it's obvious that they're trying to portray Metal Mario as some sort of reverse/doppelganger Mario. It's not something Mario's ever done before and it's not something that makes sense for Mario to be doing just because he's in the metal form. If it he was just saying "clang" or something like that I'd be more inclined to say it's something done only as a bit of form-specific flair like the unique cat vocalizations are. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 15:25, June 7, 2020 (EDT)

Or the devs are having fun. Who knows, he might have been Cosmic Mario in early builds and replaced with Metal Mario, and they decided to keep the original voiceclips, distorted differently, for variety's sake? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:31, June 7, 2020 (EDT)

Except there's absolutely nothing to suggest Cosmic Mario was ever intended to be in the game. At this point you're just going around what's fairly obvious in favor of pure speculation that would support your argument. The devs deciding to portray Metal Mario as a Mario doppelganger makes a lot more sense than "they messed with his dialogue because they were bored". -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 15:42, June 7, 2020 (EDT)

There's less than nothing indicating the entity in Smash and Golf was ever indicated to be separate the form, given there's actual evidence of them being the same. Not just some "funny quotes, therefore different." Also on that subject, SSBU uses "character" Metal Mario's art in the contexts of Mario's forms, and Nintendo didn't have a problem with that, which is an implicit seal of approval on these being the same thing. Also, in regards o MK7, Metal Mario was the only alteration character, and his weird voice clips relative to those of later additions reflect that. MK8 was made once the originality/variety slump kicked in (think NSMB series's infamy), and Metal Mario's were simply ported. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:53, June 7, 2020 (EDT)

(edit conflict) Yes but what if Pink Gold Peach said well-known Peach catchphrases but in a different order? What if Dry Bowser went "TIME SHOWWWW" or some hypothetical Rusty Copper Luigi went "PAPA PIOOOO"? Don't you think these are in the minimum suggestive they're different characters? It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 15:26, June 7, 2020 (EDT)

Not even remotely. Talking backwards does not a separate character make. Oh no, I must be Turquoise Sapphire Professor von Schmeltwick now. And again, Dry Bowser is sometimes a separate character (family friend), yet again gets a shared page. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:31, June 7, 2020 (EDT)

The first part is not a really good analogy,but for the latter on Dry Bowser I do see where you're coming from. Perhaps it's better if there's just a catch-all Metal Mario page rather than two split pages but we have to call into question with other pages that have questionable character splitting imo. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 15:55, June 7, 2020 (EDT)

That's exactly what I want. I prefer to split via concept, not relative role. And yes. In fact, Boom Boom's my next target. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:06, June 7, 2020 (EDT)