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Nightwicked Bowser

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-Are these the same Monty Moles that give away prizes in MLSS? &ndash; [[User Talk:Spike|Spike]][[Image:Spike_sheild_badge.PNG]]
+==Superstar Saga==
+Are these the same Monty Moles that give away prizes in MLSS? &ndash; [[User Talk:Knife|Spike]][[File:Spike Shield.png]]
 No, they are not...at least it hasn't been confirmed. Also the Monty Moles in MLSS are much smaller. <span style="font-family:verdana; color:#red;"><font size="5">'''[[User:Paper Jorge|P]]'''aper '''Jorge'''</font></span><small> ( [[User talk:Paper Jorge|Need to tell me something? Go to my talk page.]]<tt>&middot;</tt>[[Special:Contributions/Paper Jorge|Contributions]]<tt>&middot;</tt></small>) 21:21, 19 October 2006 (EDT)
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 == Morty Mole ==
-Prima Game`s strategy guide for ''Super Mario 3D Land'' refers to these guys as '''Morty Mole'''; not sure if that`s worth a mention. --{{User:Mercury Mech/sig}} 03:17, 30 November 2011 (EST)
+Prima Game's strategy guide for ''Super Mario 3D Land'' refers to these guys as '''Morty Mole'''; not sure if that's worth a mention. --{{User:Mercury Mech/sig}} 03:17, 30 November 2011 (EST)
 :Prima's made naming mistakes before so best not to take this too seriously, unless they're referred by the same name elsewhere. But either way I added it to the trivia section just in case. -[[User:FourPaperHeroes|<span style="color:green">'''Four'''</span> <span style="color:grey">'''Paper'''</span>]] [[User talk:FourPaperHeroes|<span style="color:green">'''Heroes'''</span>]] [[File:FourPaperHeroes.jpg|35px]] 03:22, 30 November 2011 (EST)
@@ Line 85: / Line 86: @@
 ==Split Morty Mole from Mega Mole (again)==
-{{TPP}}
+{{SettledTPP}}
+{{ProposalOutcome|passed|14-6|split}}
 Deciding to propose this again, as I honestly feel like these two being lumped together is honestly inaccurate. Were I active on the wiki at the time of the last proposal (see above), I would have supported it.
@@ Line 97: / Line 99: @@
 '''Proposer''': {{User|BubbleRevolution}}<br>
-'''Deadline''': <del>February 27, 2018, 23:59 GMT</del> Extended to March 6, 2018, 23:59 GMT
+'''Deadline''': <del>February 27, 2018, 23:59 GMT Extended to March 6, 2018, 23:59 GMT Extended to March 13, 2018, 23:59 GMT</del> Extended to March 20, 2018, 23:59 GMT
 ====Support====
@@ Line 103: / Line 105: @@
 #{{User|Owencrazyboy9}} At the moment, '''''I "still" disagree heavily with the opposition,''''' so per BubbleRevolution.
 #{{User|Seandwalsh}} Per Proposal
-#{{User|LUIGIRULES71}} BubbleRevolution makes good points, they aren't similar at all besides the fact that both are big moles. Per all.
+#{{User|LUIGIRULES71}} BubbleRevolution makes good points, they aren't similar at all besides the fact that both are big moles. To Those Opposing, Mega Mole are Morty Mole are Barely Similar With Some Little similarities, not The Same! Per all.
 #{{User|Chester Alan Arthur}} Per all.
 #{{User|Niiue}} Per all.
 #{{User|LuigiMaster123}} Per all.
+#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} I return, and with a well thought-out and peer-reviewed thesis! Behold!
+#{{user|Baby Luigi}} Per Doc von Schmeltwick
+#{{User|SmokedChili}} Per all.
+#{{User|Yoshi876}} I agree with all of this reasoning.
+#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
+#{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} You know, now that I thought about a little more, maybe I'm making myself look more like an idiot. This may be a borderline case (considering there is official evidence on both sides of the argument), but I actually want [[Magnet Sparky]] split from [[Spark]] in a similar borderline case, so per all.
+#{{User|Yoshi the SSM}} Switching because (a) {{User|Porplemontage}} supports the split and I respect that support (basically per all), (b) without this passing, the fourth proposal would be, well, too much to handle if not done according to Porplemontage's suggestion which I am worry about a little, and (c) too many supporters. I was waiting until the last day to change to support due to this last reasoning, as too many opposers would have cause this not to past.
 ====Oppose====
+<s>#{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} Literally nothing more has been brought up since the last time this was proposed. '''To those supporting:''' Just because there's nothing confirming a mere name change '''''does not automatically mean there is enough information to split them'''''. 2D enemies may behave differently when in 3D environments, hence why we don't split the 2D and 3D Goombas just because one aimlessly wanders and the other charges. And no, [[Bat (Super Mario Galaxy)|Bat (''Super Mario Galaxy'')]] isn't a good example, since they clearly behave differently from Swoops. Magmaarghs also clearly behave differently to Blarggs, and look drastically different anyways (the latter is not even entirely composed of lava in the TV series, nor in their official game artwork). That's not to mention that '''we have [[Parabuzzy]] merged with [[Para-Beetle]]'''. Lastly, how will we cover the information from ''Super Mario Maker''? Really, this should just be a multi-option proposal. Per all.</s>
 #{{user|Wildgoosespeeder}} For the same reasons as the two failed proposals.
-#{{User|Yoshi the SSM}} Agreed.
 #{{User|Waluigi Time}} The differences can easily be explained by the 21-year gap between appearances. Additionally, their first appearance was a 2D game, and they reappeared in a 3D game. This wouldn't be the first time enemies had different behaviors, appearances, and even names from either of those.
-#{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} Literally nothing more has been brought up since the last time this was proposed. '''To those supporting:''' Just because there's nothing confirming a name change '''''does not automatically mean there is enough information to split them'''''. 2D enemies may behave differently when in 3D environments, hence why we don't split the 2D and 3D Goombas just because one aimlessly wanders and the other charges. And no, [[Bat (Super Mario Galaxy)|Bat (''Super Mario Galaxy'')]] isn't a good example, since they clearly behave differently from Swoops. Magmaarghs also clearly behave differently to Blarggs, and look drastically different anyways (the latter is not even entirely composed of lava in the TV series, nor in their official game artwork). That's not to mention that '''we have [[Parabuzzy]] merged with [[Para-Beetle]]'''. Per all.
 #{{User|Pseudo-dino}} Per all.
 #{{user|Mario Kart DS Fan}} Per All.
 #{{User|YoshiFlutterJump}} Per all, especially Toadette the Achiever.  We merged Parabuzzy and Para-Beetle, and I just don’t trust Prima's naming credibility anyway.
+#{{User|LudwigVon}} Per all.
 ====Comments====
@@ Line 184: / Line 193: @@
 i'm More on Board The Split Because Mega Mole and Morty Mole Look, act and are named Different. [[User:LUIGIRULES71|LUIGIRULES71]] ([[User talk:LUIGIRULES71|talk]]) 12:10, 23 February 2018 (EST)
-@Waluigi Time What about [[Boom Boom]]? He Was Gone For What Seemed Like Forever But Kept his name and is still a 3-Hit Pushover. The Behavior is Different To Suit The now 3D Game. also What about [[Stretch (Boo)|Stretch]]? Sure their not in a 3D Game But They Were Gone Longer Than even Boom Boom But Their Behavior and name are still the same. The Morty Moles Look, Behave and are named Differently. also Those Sections They appear in Look To narrow and therefore 2D. [[User:LUIGIRULES71|LUIGIRULES71]] ([[User talk:LUIGIRULES71|talk]]) 12:37, 23 February 2018 (EST)
+@Waluigi Time What about [[Boom Boom]]? He Was Gone For What Seemed Like Forever But Kept his name and is still a 3-Hit Pushover. The Behavior is Different To Suit The now 3D Game. also What about [[Stretch]]? Sure their not in a 3D Game But They Were Gone Longer Than even Boom Boom But Their Behavior and name are still the same. The Morty Moles Look, Behave and are named Differently. also Those Sections They appear in Look To narrow and therefore 2D. [[User:LUIGIRULES71|LUIGIRULES71]] ([[User talk:LUIGIRULES71|talk]]) 12:37, 23 February 2018 (EST)
 :You're making the mistake of interpreting my comment as "every enemy that disappears changes", all I said was "enemies that disappear sometimes change". Also, Boom Boom did get changes, his colors were updated and he lost his spiked shell in the 3D games. --{{User:SuperYoshiBros/sig}} 12:57, 23 February 2018 (EST)
 ::i Did? Sorry about that. But, still Mega Mole: is Unstompable even by a [[Spin Jump]] Or [[Yoshi]], Light Brown, has a Different name, Moves considerably Fast, Doesn't Stop Moving, While Morty Mole: is Stompable even with a normal [[Jump]], Reddish-Brown, also has a Different name, Moves Slower and stops To Look around. i'd say Their Different. [[User:LUIGIRULES71|LUIGIRULES71]] ([[User talk:LUIGIRULES71|talk]]) 18:03, 25 February 2018 (EST)
@@ Line 228: / Line 237: @@
 :::Exactly. [[User:LUIGIRULES71|LUIGIRULES71]] ([[User talk:LUIGIRULES71|talk]]) 00:07, 4 March 2018 (EST)
 :::What's your point? We did end up splitting them, so I don't think you can use that as a precedent at all. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 14:03, 4 March 2018 (EST)
+::::My point is that I believe the same standard should apply here. [[User:BubbleRevolution|BubbleRevolution]] ([[User talk:BubbleRevolution|talk]]) 03:37, 5 March 2018 (EST)
 :To be fair, <tt>Utsubo</tt> could be taken as a generic eel name and may be no different than, say, Jammyfish being <tt>Jellyfish</tt> in ''Super Mario Galaxy'', whereas <tt>Indy</tt> is unmistakable. From what I've been able to tell, Unagi/Maw-Ray's filename tends to be <tt>moray</tt> in other games, which is admittedly still generic, but at least it would be internally consistent and so a clearer indication of that specific enemy if it was reused in ''Super Mario 3D Land''. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 06:20, 4 March 2018 (EST)
+All right, while I was blocked, I decided to organize all points I could think of on this issue, all at once, in a detailed and organized thesis, so as to not leave any holes. I have showed it at various points on the forums with various other users, and it seems that this is the apex of how it will turn out. Here it is...
+'''Mega Mole vs. Morty Mole: An organized overview:'''
+*Article 1: The two look completely different:
+**A: Mega Mole is a large variation of the Monty Mole, which unlike the Monty Mole, wears sunglasses. A common rebuke of this is using [[:File:SMW MontyMole.png|this artwork]] to say that Monty Mole has sunglasses in Super Mario World; despite [[:File:MontyMoleL.gif|their sprite]] clearly lacking them. However, with Mister Wu's guide uploads, I can now confirm that [[:File:SMBD page 60.png|''Super Mario World'' art for Monty Moles did not ''always'' have sunglasses]], and in fact, looked like the in-game sprite. This artwork was clearly in usage by Nintendo and not just the guide, as it paved the way for [[:File:MontySM64.png|later]] [[:File:MPA Monty Mole Artwork.png|appearances]] [[:File:MontyMole MarioFamily.png|in]] [[:File:MontyMole Miracle Moles 6.png|various]] [[:File:MontyMoleYT&G.png|games]] until they were given their modern appearance. Let's compare and contrast the artwork of Monty Mole and Mega Mole as seen there. Mega Mole has, as I've mentioned on numerous occasions, sunglasses and a smug, jutted-out lower lip. Monty Mole, on the other hand, has no sunglasses, and while the face is smug, there isn't a potruding lip to be seen.
+***a: There is ''one'' detail suggesting Mega Moles were intended to be simply upscaled Monty Moles, and that is the Monty Moles' [https://www.spriters-resource.com/resources/sheets/7/7549.png appearance] in ''Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga'', released twelve years later, which features sunglasses and smug lips. However, this detail is rendered basically worthless by the fact that in the same game, [[Hammer Bro]]s [[:File:Superstar Saga Hammer Bros.png|took after]] [[Sledge Bro|their respective larger not-quite counterpart]], while [https://www.spriters-resource.com/3ds/marioluigisuperstarsagabowsersminions/sheet/97887/ both] [[:File:MLSSBMHammerBro.png|appear]] on-model in the remake.
+***b: Ordinary Monty Moles are depicted with sunglasses in ''[[:File:MontyMole MK64.png|Mario Kart 64]]'', ''[[:File:MP3 Monty Mole Artwork.jpg|Mario Party 3]]'', and ''[[:File:PMMontyMole.png|Paper Mario]]'', based upon the inaccurate "jumping" artwork from ''Super Mario World''; however, this does not change the fact that the Monty Moles ''has'' artwork for ''Super Mario World'' depicting it without glasses, akin to the game's sprite. Furthermore the art does not appear to be original to that specific guide, as it appears to have been drawn in conjunction with the Mega Mole artork, due to the similar pose and details. ''Paper Mario'' also had other unusual designs, such as giving Pokey [[:File:PokeyPM.png|a strange catlike appearance]] ''possibly'' based tenuously off of [[:File:SMWPokeySprite.png|its ''Super Mario World'' sprites]], as opposed to [[:File:Old Pokey 64.png|its unnecessarily demonic]] ''Super Mario 64'' design, giving [[:File:HammerBroPM.png|Hammer Bro]] a blue helmet and mostly-wooden hammer, giving [[:File:PMDryBones.png|Dry Bones]] hair, making [[:File:SwooperPM.png|Swoop(er)]] purple, making [[:File:BillBlasterPM.png|Bill Blaster]] a generic cannon, making [[:File:PMLavaBubbleBattle.png|Lava Bubble]] an upright flame, giving [[:File:SpikeTop PM.png|Spike Top]] pale tan skin and an orange shell rim and claws, as well as whatever was going on with [[:File:PM Boo Sprite.png|Boo]]'s face.
+***c: Aside from the ''Superstar Saga'' sprite, all of the sunglass-wearing Monty Moles metioned above lack a jutted-out lower lip, smug expression, or pointy nose, instead having a short, gopher-like nose with a split upper lip with whiskers, like what Monty Moles have had in most games since ''Super Mario 64 DS'', while most prior games (and a few closely-following games) gave them a pushed-out, pointed nose. The large-nosed design also gave them prominent cheeks, while the designs with the gopher-like nose (including most of the sunglass-wearing ones) have flat or even somewhat concave cheeks with no prominence. While the existence of a lower lip comes and goes, they are never as prominent as that of a Mega Mole, again barring the off-model 'Superstar Saga'' sprite.
+**B: Morty Mole is a large variation of the Monty Mole, with a mahogany body, a tan belly, and a much higher-up face. There is not any eyewear to be seen, which as I pointed out previously, was actually already an abberation among the Moles for the Mega Mole to wear them. Other than that, nothing more appearance-wise to write home about them.
+**C: Between Mega Mole and Morty Mole, the only similarities is being large Monty Moles relatives that have three little hairs on the back of their heads. The differences far outweigh them. As for the other games, remember what ''Mario Kart 64'' did to [[:File:MK64PirahnaPlant.png|Piranha Plant]]? It's even weirder-looking when it moves. ''Mario Party 3'' I'll admit to being less-familiar with, but it still gave the [[:File:SpinyShellMP3.png|red Spiny Shell]] distinct hexagonal plates, of which they have been established from the [[:File:SMBSpiny.jpg|beginning]] to not have, unlike [[:File:SMB2 Koopa Troopa.png|Troopas]].
+**D: Neither in appearance is just an upscaled Monty Mole; they both feature key differences. The upscaled Monty Mole is the Mega Monty Mole from ''Mario Party 10'', ''Mario Party: Star Rush'', and ''Super Mario Maker'', which looks exactly the same as a normal Monty Mole except for size.
+*Article 2: The two act completely different:
+**A: Mega Mole storms back and forth, sometimes across hazardous ground, and is an absolute no-sell for jumping, much like Goonie or the Para-Beetles in the ''Super Mario'' games. Unlike Monty Moles in that game, however, they do not chase.
+**B: Morty Mole cautiously treads back and forth in narrow tunnels; if it comes across an obstacle, it stops, then turns around. It can be defeated with two jumps, between which it will gain speed, much like a Rex. Like the Monty Moles in that game, they follow preset paths back-and-forth.
+**C: Behaviorally, the only similarities between the two is that they walk. Which can be said of at least 60% of other enemies.
+*Article 3: The two are named differently in English and Japanese:
+**A: Mega Mole is Indy. No one seems to be sure what that means.
+**B: Morty Mole is officially named Goropoo. It is a combination of Choropoo (Monty Mole) and Goro (a rumbling sound).
+***a: The file name for Morty Mole is, in fact, Indy. This is the only logical reason to keep them separate, but it is far outweighed by all the evidence to the contrary. Furthermore, there is precendence to have articles for clearly different things be split even if a file name references something. [[Bat (Super Mario Galaxy)|Batton]]'s file name was [[Swoop|Basabasa]], but it is clearly not a Swoop. [[Magmaargh|Ugan]]'s file name in ''[[Super Mario Galaxy 2]]'' was [[Blargg|Unbaba]], a similar lava-residing dinosaur that lunged, mouth agape, at the player. In later games, where its behavior is replaced with "rise up and move forwards," however, this file name is replaced. Another example is [[Spike Eel]], the file mane of which is [[Maw-Ray]]'s Japanese name, despite them being ''extremely'' different in many qualities, noting at the same time how Unagi/Maw-Ray has gone through redesigns recently, resembling the bird from ''The Giant Claw'' in ''Mario Kart 8'' and a real-life Moray in ''Super Mario Odyssey''. Regardless, there is much precedence, and while Mega Mole may not have appeared recently, there is still very little grounds to merge based off of one point that is so often ignored, and rightfully so. File names typically represent a very early stage in development, as that is when the object it represents is first being coded in, and changing the name of it would require changing every time its name comes up. This seems to be why Batton remains Basabasa in ''Super Mario Galaxy 2''<'>s files, while Magmaargh gets a new file name for ''Super Mario 3D Land'', as it has a completely different behavior in that game, and as such, needed re-coded anyways.
+**C:The only language that gives them the same name is Spanish, which was apparently due to an [http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2018/02/marios_very_own_encylopedia_will_leap_onto_book_shelves_this_october#comment4349401 inconsistent] [http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2018/02/marios_very_own_encylopedia_will_leap_onto_book_shelves_this_october#comment4350307 glossary] that made it so it was nigh impossible to follow correctly, plus an over-abundance of middle men.
+*Article 4: The stated role is different: According to Mister Wu, each of [[:File:PEGMCE page 41.png|those]] [[:File:SMBD page 60.png|Japanese]] [[:File:SMCE page 45.png|guides]] he posted referred to Mega Moles as "bosses" among the Moles, while [http://www.21010.net/club/bn/3ds/arej/pdf/p018_019.pdf Morty Moles] were larger Monty Mole variants with no stated leadership role whatsoever.
+*Article 5: Tenuity:
+**A: Using the argument that they are "big Monty Moles" and therefore the same thing is exactly the same as saying [[Colossal Koopa Paratroopa]] and [[Tub-O-Troopa]] are the same for being large [[Koopa Paratroopa]]s, or that [[Banzai Bill]] and the [[Big Bullet Bill]] of ''Mario & Sonic'' are the same for being large [[Bullet Bill]]s, or that [[Boss Bass]], [[Red Blurp]], and [[Big Cheep Cheep]] are the same for being large [[Cheep Cheep]]s, or that [[Giant Bob-omb]] and [[King Bomb]] are the same for being large [[Bob-omb]]s...my, quite the list of non-identical "large" variants we have here, huh?
+**B: One argument that was brought up would be that the potential loss of the ''Super Mario Maker'' section would cause a glaring lack of coverage. If that's the case, please direct me to the articles for "Big Spike Top," "Big Fishbone," "Big Blurp," "Big Magikoopa," (and no, [[Giant Kamek]] doesn't count as it's solely a boss, and we don't lump [[Naval Piranha]] with [[Big Piranha Plant]],) "Big Jumping Piranha Plant," "Big Circling Boo Buddies," "Big Baby Blooper," again, the list goes on.
+**C: It was once brought up that Morty Mole's color difference shouldn't matter due to Fire Piranha Plant being colored differently in ''3D Land'' as well. This does not actually translate: In most games, Fire Piranha Plant is distingishable from a distance from pose alone, as it's the one whose head tracks the player. In ''3D Land'', both types had the same "at rest" pose and both tracked the player, so the color-difference was necessary for split-second differentiating. In ''Super Mario Odyssey'', while Fire Piranha Plants are red, they glow orange every two seconds, and there's no "normal" Piranha Plant enemies in that game anyways. My point is that Monty Mole and Morty Mole can be told apart at a glance even without the color difference, and the game's other large guy, [[Big Tail Goomba]], wasn't discolored from the regular [[Tail Goomba]].
+**D: Bizarrely, Para-Beetle and Parabuzzy keep getting brought up, despite the fact that they've had the same Japanese name from the start, are from different ''genres'', and the alledged fact that Para-Beetle was called Parabuzzy by the ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' guide, blurring them further. Then ''Super Mario Maker'' made them definitely the same, by using either designs with the typical ''Super Mario'' behavior. As for the moles? ''Super Mario Maker'' has made them definitely different, as the large mole in that game is neither Mega Mole nor Morty Mole in appearance or behavior, which also makes neither of them the "Kyodai Choropoo." Besides, there are plenty of differences between enemy behaviors between platform and RPG games, as is the case with the flying Buzzies, as I listed way back when [[Talk: Big Boo#Re-merge Big Boo (Paper Mario) with Big Boo|I made what I think was my first successful proposal]].
+*Article 6: Wrapping things up:
+**A: As demonstrated, there is far more proof of them being different than them being the same. As such, claiming they're the same is the less-likely claim, from a judicial standpoint alone.
+**B: To avoid speculation, the wiki should only make judgement-call merges when there is ''not'' significant amounts of proof that they are different; for instance, for a long time, it was sensible to assume [[Spoing]] was a [[Scuttlebug]], but once it became clear they weren't they were split....once that proposal was fully-enacted, anyways. It was even not terribly rash to refer to [[Undergrunt]] as Monty Mole before we knew they weren't, since game had a few odd designs, and [[Monty (Super Mario Galaxy)|a similar-looking species in the same game]] was easily-confusable with [[Rocky Wrench]]. But once they're definitely differentiated, they need to be split.
+**C: It is far more cautious to have them separate until something ''specifically'' states they are the same, what with all the proof they are different.
+**D: Due to the amount of proof they are different, the burden of proof really lies on the people saying they are the same. Proof was found that Bubba was intnded to be Boss Bass and Bub was intended to be Cheep Cheep before they were merged, and I'd prefer there be proof of that caliber if these are to stay merged. Perring the last proposal is within the rules, but I believe I have now addressed every single point against splitting them from both previous proposals.
+**E: For those of you waiting for ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' to be the "ultimate answer," that's being handled by Dark Horse Comics, who in their various ''Zelda'' books:
+***a: Can't decide whether the ''Oracle'' games came before or after ''Link's Awakening'';
+***b: Referred to the Demon Train as the "Dream Train;"
+***c: Perpetuated the myth that the ''Link to the Past'' enemy Coppie is the same as Goriya;
+***d: Made the ''cringeworthy'' choice of referring to the first two ''Zelda 2'' bosses (Horsehead and Helmethead) by bad romanizations of their Japanese names (Mazura and Jermafenser, respectively).
+***e: Identified one mohawk croc (Zazack) with another (Daira).
+***f: Failed to give English names period to a number of ''Zelda 2'' and ''Link to the Past'' enemies (just using the Japanese ones with some getting ''slight'' romanizations), which Link-the-Lefty has listed.
+***g: My point is, they aren't a great ultimate arbiter.
+Anyways, I await proof that these are the same. Burden of proof lies with that claim, as I have given plenty of proof for this side already, I believe. And if you see any problems with ''any'' of my above reasoning, feel free to tell me. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:18, 6 March 2018 (EST)
+:Well said, I agree with most of what you've written here. One note about the Zelda thing, I don't see how localizing certain enemies with romanizations of their Japanese names is a bad thing or erroneous, they've never had officially translated English names. Zelda enemies have always had pretty fantasy-sounding/nonsensical names so I feel it fits. The Horsehead and Helmethead thing is kind of weird, especially since Breath of the Wild referenced both of those names (Orsedd and Helmhead Bridges), but given that "Mazura" and "Jermafenser" also appeared in a recent guidebook (from a different publisher) released slightly before the art book, it seems like those are what Nintendo officially wants those two to be called. [[User:BubbleRevolution|BubbleRevolution]] ([[User talk:BubbleRevolution|talk]]) 23:56, 6 March 2018 (EST)
+::I might be misremembering, but I think some of them might have translated the accents wrong or not at all, keeping the horizontal bars and such, which wouldn't make much sense to a solely-English-speaking person. But again, I could be remembering wrong. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:16, 7 March 2018 (EST)
+:::Huh, interesting, they may have just been going for accuracy then if that's the case. I'll be interested to see how the Encyclopedia handles the SML2 enemies when it comes out. [[User:BubbleRevolution|BubbleRevolution]] ([[User talk:BubbleRevolution|talk]]) 04:44, 7 March 2018 (EST)
+:@Article 5D: No. The big Monty Moles from ''Super Mario Maker'' are no less similar to Mega Moles, at the very least. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 21:28, 6 March 2018 (EST)
+::And they're a different thing entirely as well. They're in the files simply as the same as a Monty Mole, but taking up more space, as that's how they act. If they're distinct from Monty Mole at all, they'd be the same as the "Mega Monty Mole" from the ''Mario Party'' games, as it's "Kyodai Choropoo," so just a "Giant Monty Mole," with no added frills thrown in. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:44, 6 March 2018 (EST)
+:::And I concur that you present that opinion as if enemy designs can't change over time, which they can.
+::::I don't think anyone is arguing that designs can't change over time, just that there's insufficient evidence to declare without question that the two aren't the same. [[User:BubbleRevolution|BubbleRevolution]] ([[User talk:BubbleRevolution|talk]]) 00:00, 7 March 2018 (EST)
+::::Even so, "Morty Mole" only appeared one time. If it weren't for the fact that Monty Moles appeared in that game (for a basis), it could easily be the one-time design of Big Monty Mole. But on the other hand, the same could apply to Bat (Super Mario Galaxies) but without a basis (and other enemies as well). Read further to my first next paragraph comment. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 00:42, 7 March 2018 (EST)
+Also, @Article 6E: notice how you never address the '''actual''' ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'', instead basing it off of a similar book, which doesn't make it any more reliable. If anything, I suggest waiting off this proposal and waiting the eight months for the book to be localized into English. Then we'll see... {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 23:05, 6 March 2018 (EST)
+:Actually I address ''three'' books by the same publisher and ''some'' of their various inconsistencies with each other and established canon. I own two of them myself. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:08, 6 March 2018 (EST)
+::They may be unreliable when it comes to Zelda, but until the Mario book is released, there is nothing to say against it. Also, Zelda has a canon. Mario does not (what canon it does have refers to everything). In any case, it is best to put this aside until it is released. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 00:42, 7 March 2018 (EST)
+:::I honestly highly doubt they'll be called anything but "Morty Mole" in the English localization. All the names in Prima's 3D Land guide have been correct so far whenever the enemies from that game reappeared, and the Japanese version gives them separate names, I don't see why they'd change it when practically every official Japanese source gives the two moles different names, it'd be like them suddenly calling Coin Coffers "Moneybags" or something. [[User:BubbleRevolution|BubbleRevolution]] ([[User talk:BubbleRevolution|talk]]) 00:58, 7 March 2018 (EST)
+::::Well, they ''did'' incorrectly label [[Sledge Bro]]s as [[Sumo Bro]]s for about six years. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 21:00, 7 March 2018 (EST)
+:::::[https://imgur.com/a/Jr0rU After Nintendo Power did it first]. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:07, 7 March 2018 (EST)
+::::::Prima definitely isn't always 100% accurate with their names, but I have no reason to doubt the 3D Land ones are inaccurate. This is a bit of a different case from Sledge Bros., which are clearly intended to be the same enemy as they have an almost identical design, with Morty Mole and Mega Mole it's not nearly that cut and dry. [[User:BubbleRevolution|BubbleRevolution]] ([[User talk:BubbleRevolution|talk]]) 17:29, 9 March 2018 (EST)
+This is Getting Nowhere... [[User:LUIGIRULES71|LUIGIRULES71]] ([[User talk:LUIGIRULES71|talk]]) 23:15, 13 March 2018 (EDT)<br/>
+This is Just Gonna Continue Until it Reaches a Conclusion...They aren't Very Similar, They are Just as similar as Sledge Bro is To Sumo Bro. Please...Why Didn't You Vote Split LudwigVon? [[User:LUIGIRULES71|LUIGIRULES71]] ([[User talk:LUIGIRULES71|talk]]) 23:59, 13 March 2018 (EDT)
+:If it doesn't reach consensus, I'll probably repropose this in a few months after Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. gets published here, with an added option of dealing with the Mario Maker moles. [[User:BubbleRevolution|BubbleRevolution]] ([[User talk:BubbleRevolution|talk]]) 17:47, 14 March 2018 (EDT)
+::Um... See [[User talk:Porplemontage#"The Morty-fying Situation"]]. He details the best course of action. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 17:52, 14 March 2018 (EDT)
+:::That's what I was planning on adding as an option if it came to making another proposal later on. There's lots of other big enemies in Mario Maker that don't have articles, we could just add the details to the Monty Mole page. [[User:BubbleRevolution|BubbleRevolution]] ([[User talk:BubbleRevolution|talk]]) 17:58, 14 March 2018 (EDT)
+:Regardless of what you might think and of how the outcome of the proposal might be affected, everyone has the right to vote in the way that matches what they think. Please don't blame people for what they vote.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 10:51, 14 March 2018 (EDT)
+::Yeah, I'd say the English version of ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' is our best bet right now. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 23:27, 14 March 2018 (EDT)
+:::Note that that would still be lower on the hierarchy than Prima, as it is not for the release of a specific game, but as a retrospective, and not written by Nintendo themselves, but by Dark Horse Comics. It's just like any other potential source, not an ultimate answer. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:42, 14 March 2018 (EDT)
+In regards to the ''Super Mario Maker'' info, I'd like to point out that the information for Buzzy Beetle+Wings+Super Mushroom isn't on the [[Heavy Para-Beetle]] page, nor should it be. As it's a different thing, and doesn't need to be lumped with something only tenuously similar. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:01, 14 March 2018 (EDT)
+While I myself have taken a neutral stance this time, I will say for the record, since it looks like support is succeeding now, pushing the same exact proposal multiple times consecutively without any new working information whatsoever is still not a good idea and generally shouldn't happen as it can set a bad trend. I really don't see why this subject couldn't have just waited a few more months until we finally get the needed source (hopefully as scheduled) that should definitively tilt this "borderline case" in one direction or another. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:30, 20 March 2018 (EDT)
+== Big Monty Mole ==
+Big Monty Moles, larger versions of regular [[Monty Moles]], appear in the [[Super Mario Maker (disambiguation)|Super Mario Maker series]] and [[Yoshi's Crafted World]]. However, neither this article or the [[Morty Mole]] article mentions this. How should we handle this? Some people may think Big Monty Moles are the same as Mega Moles, but I think they are different. {{User:Obsessive Mario Fan/sig}} 13:18, August 19, 2019 (EDT)
+:Definitely. They should be split. But since they're called "big Monty Moles", and not "Big Monty Mole", we'd have to use the Mario Party name. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 13:21, August 19, 2019 (EDT)
+::Did Big Monty Moles appear in any games other than the Super Mario Maker series and Yoshi's Crafted World? You implied that they also appeared in a Mario Party game. {{User:Obsessive Mario Fan/sig}} 13:38, August 19, 2019 (EDT)
+:::Scroll to the Monty Mole's stats part of the page, and it mentions both Monty Mole and Mega Monty Mole. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 13:42, August 19, 2019 (EDT)
+::::Mega Monty Mole deserves its own page, but do the big Monty Moles from ''YCW'' have any difference from regular Monty Moles? Otherwise we should only split the ''Mario Party'' Mega Monty Mole, while mentioning how Mega Moles/Morty Moles are not the same as Mega Monty Moles, or the other larger Monty Moles. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 13:52, August 19, 2019 (EDT)
+::::(Edit conflict with Doomhiker) I don't know if the boss Mega Monty Mole should be included in the Big Monty Mole article or be considered a separate character, like [[Mega Sledge Bro]]. Right now, Mega Monty Mole is a redirect to [[Mega Monty Mole's Maze Mischief]], which just isn't right. {{User:Obsessive Mario Fan/sig}} 13:55, August 19, 2019 (EDT)
+:::::Big Monty Moles are certainly different from regular ones in ''YCW''. They require two hits to defeat, turning red on the first hit. Big Monty Moles are always found in the background, so they can only be interacted with by throwing eggs. {{User:Obsessive Mario Fan/sig}} 14:00, August 19, 2019 (EDT)
+::::::Mega Goomba is merged to the Big Goomba page, we should either change that or stay consistent. As the big Monty Moles are different in ''YCW'' they are definitely worthy of coverage (we can use the {{tem|Distinguish}} template or the {{tem|about}} template of the Mega Mole page, not sure if it is needed on the Morty Mole page) and we might as well cover their appearance in ''SMM'' given that their generic appearance is different than regular Mony Moles in at least one game. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 14:09, August 19, 2019 (EDT)
+== Unjust Dessert Pages ==
+I own Unjust Desserts and I was wondering which pages have Mega Moles on them? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 01:48, October 4, 2021 (EDT)
+Also should the Mega Mole in Volume 1 of Super Mario-kun get their own page as a notable member or just be lumped with the normal Mega Mole page? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 22:22, October 5, 2021 (EDT)
+So which pages had Mega Moles in Unjust Desserts? I never seen a part in which Magikoopa shrunk the Mega Moles or Luigi and Yoshi spitting them out. The only thing about Mega Moles I remember appearing was their name being on a crossword puzzle stating them as Bowser’s Minions. [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 15:10, October 31, 2021 (EDT)
+:I imagine it's not a very commonly owned book, since you have it you're probably better off looking through it yourself. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 15:43, October 31, 2021 (EDT)
+Your right, but Unjust Desserts is a very confusing book to look through. Any suggestions to make finding the Mega Mole stuff easier in that book? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 15:51, October 31, 2021 (EDT)
+:Look through the book. You had nearly an entire month to do this. [[File:Paper Mario Dizzy.png]] {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 16:39, October 31, 2021 (EDT)
+::I assume based on similar books I've read in the past that it's "confusing" because the paths are in different sections of the book and reading it from cover to cover doesn't make much sense. Does the plot really matter if you're just looking for where Mega Moles appear, though? There's really no reason to be asking other people to do this for you when you've already made it clear that you have the book and can find it yourself. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:07, October 31, 2021 (EDT)
+== Super Mario-kun Mega Mole ==
+Do you guys think the Mega Mole in volume 1 of Super Mario-kun should get their own page even if they don’t have a unique name? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 21:43, November 6, 2021 (EDT)
+:I am emphatically opposed to that. It's a generic member of the species that is treated as a vague individual due solely to being the only one in the story. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:48, November 6, 2021 (EDT)
+== Quote ==
+{{quote|オレは キラーけん銃を一 もっている! 丸ごしの刑事なんて こわくはないぜ! ("I have a Bullet Bill gun! I'm not afraid of a fatty detective!")|Mega Mole|Super Mario (Kodansha manga)}}
+Should we replace the current quote with this quote? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 15:26, November 9, 2021 (EST)
+:I don't think either quote is suitable. It's a portrayal from an obscure manga that doesn't really give a look at consistent portrayal through the series. Not every page needs a quote to go with it. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 15:30, November 9, 2021 (EST)
+::I agree that this article could probably do without either of these quotes. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 16:56, November 9, 2021 (EST)