Editing Talk:Challenges (Super Smash Bros. Ultimate)

== Delete all Super Smash Bros. challenges pages ==
{{SettledTPP}}
{{ProposalOutcome|passed|4-4-12-7|keep ''super mario'' content only}}
In addition to this article, the following articles would be affected:
* [[Challenges (Super Smash Bros. Brawl)]]
* [[Challenges (Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS)]]
* [[Challenges (Super Smash Bros. for Wii U)]]

With the increasing trend in the changes that have been made to various Smash Bros. articles and categories, I believe that these articles should be next on this wiki's list. Most of these articles just contain content that is displayed in-game, and they're also identical to how the SmashWiki lists them: [[smashwiki:List of challenges (SSBB)|SSBB]] [[smashwiki:List of challenges (SSB4-3DS)|SSB4-3DS]] [[smashwiki:List of challenges (SSB4-Wii U)|SSB4-Wii U]] [[smashwiki:List of challenges (SSBU)|SSBU]] With that said, I think that we can safely delete these articles without any major concerns to this wiki.

I have decided to make three options for this poll. They are:

* '''Delete the articles.''' This means that none of their contents will remain on this wiki, save for a short paragraph or so on the games' main articles.
* '''Delete the articles, but move the contents.''' The articles will still be removed, but their contents (including the tables they have) are fully moved to each of the games' main articles. It might result in the articles becoming bloated, but it's an option if people want to preserve the content.
* '''Keep only Mario-related content. (new)''' Self-explanatory. I think it will still be moved to the main pages unless the content remaining is justifiable.
* '''Do not delete (Do nothing).''' The articles will remain as is.

I should also note that for Wii U and Ultimate's articles do not currently have a challenges section, but I can make one for these if necessary, should one of the first two options pass.

'''Proposer''': {{User|BMfan08}}<br>
'''Deadline''': <s>April 19, 2024, 23:59 GMT</s> <s>Extended to April 26, 2024, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to May 3, 2024, 23:59 GMT

===Delete the articles===
#{{User|BMfan08}} My primary choice, per the proposal.
#{{User|LadySophie17}} per proposal.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Secondary choice--we feel like this might be a little extreme given what we did to Masterpieces, but we wouldn't mind.
#{{User|Biggestman}} This is not a Smash Bros. wiki, and I REALLY feel we need to crack down on all these Smash Bros. pages that barely have anything to do with Mario. Per all.

<s>#{{User|MegaBowser64}} You know what? Smash sucks. And plus, Smash Wiki is better than we'll ever be at writing Smash articles! I'd say we should just delete ALL the Smash stuff and move the games to "Cameo Appearances", but some people probably wouldn't be happy. Per all.</s><br/>
<s>#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Absolutely. The proposal gives a perfect argument for the content's removal, since this is just replicating what SmashWiki already has.</s><br/>
<s>{{User|Sparks}} Per all.</s>

===Delete the articles, but move the contents===
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} This is our primary choice. Given what we did to Masterpieces, it seems only fair to consolidate these tables into a much more easily summarized format and merge them over to the games' respective articles.
#{{User|Arend}} It makes more sense to move the contents than straight-up removing it, given some of the challenges are still Mario-related like with Masterpieces.
#{{User|Tails777}} Secondary choice. This is one of those cases where I'm against deleting it entirely, so either option that keeps the information is fine by me.
#{{User|Hewer}} Second choice, per all.

===Keep only Mario-related content===
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Mario}} Per comment.
#{{User|Axis}} All of the Mario challenges should be merged into the same page, and the rest should be deleted.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} If we ''have'' to do ''something'', then this.
#{{User|Sparks}} Per Mario and Tails777. This is a ''MARIO'' Wiki after all, so it was too harsh when I initially voted to outright delete the challenges. The Smash Wiki May cover the ''Super Smash Bros.'' games, but the Mario Wiki should still mention the ''Mario'' content of the franchise.
#{{User|Tails777}} Third option. Per LinkTheLefty. If we ''really'' have to delete anything, may it be whatever isn't fully relevant. Mario Wiki still strives to document as much ''Mario'' related content as possible and this really shouldn't be an exception just because it's from ''Smash''.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Changing this to my primary choice. I see what others mean by keeping the ''Super Mario'' content, like how Zelda Wiki keeps only the Zelda content for their Challenges page. Part of why I supported the deletion is because I thought this would mean the ''Super Mario'' challenges would go on the respective game articles and that it would help with the accessibility of ''Super Smash Bros.'' content on SmashWiki. But keeping the pages separate may not too bad, and merging them could be something to consider for another day.
#{{User|SmokedChili}} Per all.
#{{User|Archivist Toadette}} Per all.
#{{user|MegaBowser64}} oh yes fine. per all of yall (collectively)
#{{User|Power Flotzo}} Per all.
#{{User|Mushzoom}} Per all.

===Do not delete (Do nothing)===
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Some challenges involve Mario characters gameplay-wise ("Use Donkey Kong 20 times in brawls.", "Brawl on the Yoshi's Island Melee stage 3 times.") and may unlock Mario stages, spirits, and whatnot upon completion. That's not even getting into how a lot of challenges across 3DS/Wii U/Ultimate are represented using Mario characters (in Ultimate's case, even titled after them). While you can argue that these pages also have a lot of superfluous content that is irrelevant to anyone looking up info on Mario Wiki, I find the lists to still be useful for the purposes of presenting the information that ''is'' relevant to Mario. There's better ways to handle this; the point of these proposals has never been to go nuclear on anything and everything that doesn't come from the Mario series, but to subject these non-Mario subjects to a triage based on how much they interact with Mario and co. within Smash games, which I believe is a good approach to have for the type of crossover game represented by Smash in the wiki's coverage policy.
#{{User|Hewer}} The only times we've completely thrown out Smash information instead of merging or condensing it in some way were when it really was barely or not at all relevant to Mario, and per Koopa con Carne, this is not one of those times. And I still don't really like the logic of basing what we do on other entirely separate wikis.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per all. Koopa con Carne and Hewer have basically said everything I'd also say.
#{{User|Arend}} Secondary choice.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Per K the C.
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Perhaps we should merge to the main page later, but we're not at that juncture just yet. Per Hewer especially, treating this as comparable to Snake's carboard box.... isn't. In regards to deletion, I echo what I said on the [[Talk:Masterpiece|Masterpieces]] proposal: "I am of the opinion that aspects of each game should be mentioned to ''some capacity'' on their respective page. It doesn't have to be long, but... look at the tables in the ''[[Super Smash Bros.]]'' article. There should be no less coverage than what that represents, on a game-by-game basis. The items don't even need to link to anything on this wiki, but their existence should be acknowledged regardless."
#{{User|Scrooge200}} Yeah, not covering these at all feels like a big mistake. As someone who enjoys reading these pages and ''does'' find them useful, especially when I play the games myself, I think it'd be a negative to just delete them and pretend they don't exist. Even coverage-wise, I think covering a core mechanic of a ''Smash'' game rather than character-specific moves or items makes much more sense.

===Comments===
I think restricting it to just Mario content the way that was done in [[Taunt]] might be the way to go. {{User:Mario/sig}} 20:58, April 5, 2024 (EDT)
:Should I go ahead and add it as an option? [[User:BMfan08|BMfan08]] ([[User talk:BMfan08|talk]]) 21:22, April 5, 2024 (EDT)
::I don't see why not. Go ahead! [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 09:26, April 6, 2024 (EDT)
:::It is done. [[User:BMfan08|BMfan08]] ([[User talk:BMfan08|talk]]) 10:52, April 6, 2024 (EDT)

We personally hold a bit of contention with only retaining the Mario-related information, which is mostly because of our preference for the "merge to the games' article" option, but also, in regards to that option... What actually '''''counts''''' as Mario-related information? Is it just challenges that involve Mario characters? Is it challenges whose images depict Mario characters, even if their challenge is more generic?  Is it challenges whose images depict Mario characters, even if the challenge itself is character-specific to a non-Mario character like Ultimate's "As Little Mac, hit an opponent with a KO Uppercut in Boxing Ring" and "As Pac-Man, get a score of 7650 with his Final Smash" challenges? How about challenges that only have a Mario thing as a reward, like Brawl's "Clear Classic with all characters"? What if the challenge relies on a Mario-related stage, but is otherwise unrelated, like the "Brawl on the Mushroomy Kingdom stage 10 times" challenge in Brawl? What will we do about ''for 3DS'' and ''for Wii U's'' grid-based Challenge boards, that which already have a full representation of the grid by the table itself--will we have to depict these challenge boards in an entirely different manner to truncate the non-Mario information? {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 22:50, April 6, 2024 (EDT)
:That, unfortunately, might be out of the scope of the proposal. While I would be open to interpretation of this particular option, I'm already at so many options that they're at a standstill that likely will not resolve itself unless everyone votes to turn the proposal down. I'm not settled on an option necessarily, but if the wiki wanted to include every single picture, description, and reward that referenced Mario, I would be okay with it.<br>Also, I believe that, since SmashWiki already covers the information for ''for 3DS'' and ''for Wii U'' in a grid, that we could do with just a table. [[User:BMfan08|BMfan08]] ([[User talk:BMfan08|talk]]) 00:20, April 7, 2024 (EDT)
::I'd limit to any challenge that requires a particular Mario asset (such as requiring a playable character; in Smash 4 and Ultimate, this usually entails in a reward image showing the character in question, such as the infamous "clear this Crazy Challenges x times with Mario and the reward image is Mario posing next to treasure chests) and/or gives out a Mario award. In Smash Ultimate, include the subject matter of the reward image too. Anything that isn't specific, no. I think people browsing on MarioWiki would benefit with Mario-related information, get particular about the information, but eh. {{User:Mario/sig}} 18:54, April 7, 2024 (EDT)

@MegaBowser64: That... is a REALLY bold take. Regardless, I feel like it make no sense to outright delete ''everything'' related to Smash and descrease it to a cliffnote on the cameo and reference pages. The relevancy of Mario as a franchise to Smash is just way too big to deminish our coverage to such a degree. Smash as a series covers like 20 characters, 30+ stages, and a multitude of items and Assist Trophies, that all relate to Mario in some form, and ''all'' play a major role in the main gameplay. We have pages for games with less Mario relevancy, such as ''[[Rhythm Heaven Megamix]]'' and ''[[Tetris 99]]'', and yet the relevancy there in those games is pretty major as well, so it's not like we've got to delete those anytime soon, either. {{User:Arend/sig}} 18:40, April 10, 2024 (EDT)
:It's even more than what I'd like removed around here, but he's right that SmashWiki will always have the superior coverage (and SSB is overrated). Why stress with Smash Bros. if the Super Mario franchise always has so many games already? [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 18:46, April 10, 2024 (EDT)
::As has been said before in these debates, SmashWiki is a very different wiki to this one, being more community/competitive-oriented rather than only covering official content, and mixing in popular fan names with official names without making much of an attempt to distinguish between them. Whether it's better or not is a matter of opinion, but I don't think it's very accurate to see it as just a replacement for this wiki's coverage. But even besides that I still dislike the idea of basing what we do on other entirely separate wikis. We're trying to be the most complete Mario encyclopedia possible, Smash is part of that as it has major Mario content, what's wrong with multiple wikis covering the same thing (and doing so in very different ways)? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 05:04, April 11, 2024 (EDT)
:::Agreed. Honestly, I haven't really been the biggest fan of reducing ''Smash'' coverage this drastically, even if it is probably just delaying the inevitable. I think it was forked or backed up to a degree somewhere before the reductions last I heard, but I kinda wish it didn't have to come to that. <small>And it wasn't bad for traffic either.</small> [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:11, April 12, 2024 (EDT)
::::Yeah RMV going off the deep end kinda halted that plan. There's always archive.org... anyways, I think what I've been doing for the ''[[Super Smash Bros.]]'' game page is the best way to handle all of this, along with putting all trophies et al. on the respective gallery. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:18, April 12, 2024 (EDT)
:::::Honestly, even with other specialized wikis already covering this in mind, I still think it's just a bad idea in general to reduce our Smash coverage to a section on the reference page, given how majorly the Mario franchise is being represented in these games. I also don't really like how we've been reducing the coverage of Smash bros characters/stages/items/things in general as of recent either, but at least that's understandable to the degree that it's not much Mario-related; MegaBowser64's idea, though, goes too far. If we did such a thing exactly as what MegaBowser64 suggests, it would be super inconsistent with how we deal with other (non-minor) Mario appearances outside of the franchise. For example, if we cannot keep ''[[Super Smash Bros. Ultimate]]'', then why should ''[[NBA Street V3]]'' get a free pass? And would we be allowed to cover ''[[Fortune Street]]'' or ''[[Skylanders: SuperChargers]]''? Diminishing Smash Ultimate's coverage to a section on the game reference page would majorly shake up the way the wiki would normally deal with crossovers. {{User:Arend/sig}} 17:30, April 12, 2024 (EDT)
::::::Gotta echo what you say: removing Smash content entirely is one hell of a take lmao. I literally see no good argument to be made towards that. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:45, April 12, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::Even as the resident "we hate the excessive Smash coverage" individuals, removing it ''entirely'' would be a heck of an overstep. Especially since we've given comparatively lesser appearances (such as ''[[Art Style: PiCTOBiTS]]'' <s>our beloved</s>, which primarily only features Mario ''items'' and a few cameos) full articles. We're all for consolidation, but there's a reason our primary option is to merely merge Challenges--not to delete them entirely. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 19:47, April 12, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::Whoooops. Sorry guys. I started another random off topic discussion again. Uh, I was actually being sarcastic with that statement (are you allowed to lie on a wiki?) and my opinions aren't nearly that extreme. I just thought, with all of this "reduce Smash coverage" sentiment on the wiki lately, that it would kind of funny to say something way on the far extreme end of the general opinion? Probably not a good idea. But anyway, I used to hold the opinion that Mario Wiki should keep all Smash coverage. In the last month or two, I've realized that we really don't need all of that, and I now think it would be ok to remove some Smash content, given we keep the basics intact. So yeah, I do agree with deleting challenges as they're kind of tangential to core Smash coverage. [[File:Bowsersm64.png|35px]] [[User:MegaBowser64|MegaBowser64]] ([[User talk:MegaBowser64|talk]]) [[File:BowserNSMBU.png|35px]] 10:48, April 13, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::If I may, a theoretical situation: say someone comes to this wiki, not knowing the existence of a Smash Wiki and by chance missed the fact that we have a link to such site. They own Smash for Wii U and want to know how to unlock Diddy Kong's Exploding Popgun custom move. Diddy Kong's article shows no such info, the Popgun article shows no info on how to unlock it. And if there's no challenges page, then Super Mario Wiki would lack the information on how to properly unlock Diddy Kong's Exploding Popgun move. Yes, there are simple workarounds for this flaw, such as just adding it to the Popgun article, but in that theoretical situation, someone would have come to Super Mario Wiki to look up relevant information to a ''Mario series'' character and would not have found it. Yes, that's a very unlikely situation, but in a [[Talk:Crazy Kong|conversation on the Crazy Kong talk page]], Koopa Con Carne brings up a good point in that a touch-and-go situation like that isn't completely unheard of. I might be stretching it a bit, but that's at least my stance on not outright deleting this type of thing. Keeping it for the sake of Mario relevant content at the very least should be something. {{User:Tails777/sig}}19:51, April 13, 2024 (EDT)
At this point I would be ok with keeping the Mario content. It's better than nothing and I would definitely like to see a conclusive end to this proposal. [[File:Bowsersm64.png|33px]] [[User:MegaBowser64|MegaBowser64]] ([[User talk:MegaBowser64|talk]]) [[File:BowserNSMBU.png|35px]] 18:56, April 25, 2024 (EDT)