Comment on the proposal to merge this wiki with Super Mario Wiki.
Forum:Merge with Super Mario Wiki
(This is a continuation of a comment I made at User talk:Porplemontage#Reflections)
A recent comment I made has got me thinking: With the level of inactivity on this wiki, merging this with Super Mario Wiki would be a good future for this wiki's content.
First, allow me to clarify what I mean by "merge": a careful page-by-page comparison of content on DKWiki to SMWiki's equivalent, adding any notable missing information to SMWiki.
Arguments for merging
This wiki has...
- Very few active users (7 by the current count); there's only one user with >100 edits in the last month, Alex95, and he's composing content concurrently on SMWiki and DKWiki. Compare that to SMWiki's active users, which total 296(!), with 22 users having >100 edits in the last month. Consider also that a forum I posted has stayed inactive for 4 months.
- A small site rank. Compare its Alexa ranks of 1,272,323 (global) and 454,451 (US) to SMWiki's Alexa ranks of 14,019 (global) and 5,151 (US). That's 2 orders of magnitude of difference!
Because of the above, I see more encyclopedic merit in consolidating information than having two separate places for Donkey Kong information.
Traditionally, my understanding of the argument against a merge is that this wiki is presenting the "Donkey Kong" perspective on Mario, and serving as a niche for Donkey Kong coverage.
However, encyclopedic content is encyclopedic content. While we do purposely differentiate in style, and have some original content, we are mostly duplicated by SMWiki. And for the content that isn't, it can always be added to SMWiki. I have confidence in SMWiki's notability policy as a barrier for entry; community consensus is generally a good formula for strong wikis.
Also, while this wiki has a focus on Donkey Kong content, SMWiki's size means it can cover DK better, because it's statistically likely that DK fans are already working there anyway.
History of this discussion
However, since the counterarguments section is based off my personal understanding, I have retrieved some history of this discussion using this search (file and user namespaces are excluded). Note that I did not include everything below; some of the references were deemed redundant or irrelevant.
Talk:Main Page#Why does this wiki exist?: "Hello, I am TheMorningFlash from the Super Mario Wiki. In accordance to coverage policy, Donkey Kong is considered part of the Mario Franchise, and everything on this site is already covered on the Mario Wiki. Therefore, should this wiki be deleted?" (126.96.36.199) (bold mine)
- "Sincerely, the DKW lacks LOTS of informations. That's a real bad problem. Even the Super Mario Wiki has more information. But that's not a REAL problem, because everyone who likes DK can edit the wiki, and someday the wiki will grow up. But one of the problems, is that some visitor may just enter the site, see the Main Page, and leave." (YoshiFan1200)
- "SMW is what it is: "Super Mario Wiki", and they have DKW information. If we don't have information about DK, this wiki is completely useless, and it will still be a useless wiki. We can basically trow this wiki into the trash or recycle parts os SMW so we can basically be a "wiki". Renember: "If there is a wiki only for plants, and this wiki covers information for "Rose", then Wikipedia will not need to cover the information for "Rose" just because another wiki has the info?". Yes, it's hard sometimes to be diferent from others because of what it is: A red flower with torns. Also, with more organisation we can atract more users to the wiki, or not." (YoshiFan1200)
- "In addition, organization means very little when all you're doing is making us the same as Mario Wiki. The Wiki's current design has a better chance at getting new people, while veteran users simply don't care about the main page. There is no point in changing to be like Mario Wiki, and there is no point in using a comparison when it doesn't even work all that well. Mario Wiki has information about DK, we try to deal with it by being unique. People will go to Mario Wiki and trying to be like Mario Wiki isn't going to help us seem like anything other than a plagiarism site." (Megatron1)
- "Exactly why would Mario Wiki have to have the information [about DK]? They have it, but they don't have rights over it." (Megatron1)
- "You seem to be missing the point this Wiki, this Wiki intends to go more in depth into Donkey Kong focusing specifically on the franchise, unlike the Mario Wiki's more general coverage (just like how the SmashWiki specifically covers the Smash series in depth even though Mario Wiki covers Smash too, and as a result, has infinitely superior Smash content to what Mario Wiki has). If you have such a problem with this Wiki (and by extension SmashWiki) having some content overlap with the Mario Wiki, instead of yelling at this Wiki for existing, you should be yelling at the users on Mario Wiki for insistently covering every single thing that has a connection to something with the vaguest of connection to Mario (ideally, a "Mario Wiki" should be covering the Mario franchise and things with Mario in it, instead of every other franchise that once interacted with Mario)... The current style doesn't produce any readability issues, doesn't obscure the content in any way, and provides it with a DK motif to match its content, while giving it a look to separate it from the standard Wiki fare (and by extension, Mario Wiki). Also, anything suggesting "try to be more like Mario Wiki" is a really bad idea for the Wiki, for the aforementioned content overlap issue and the fact this Wiki has a bad history with newbie users attempting to plagiarise Mario Wiki." (Omega Tyrant)
- I was happy to see that Donkey Kong wiki was added today, they had very good articles. But then I checked the Super Mario wiki and saw they have almost the exact same articles for every thing on Donkey kong wiki. I say either Donkey Kong wiki must leave or Super Mario wiki but delete all there donkey kong articles and provide a link to the donkey kong wiki
- Let me explain. This will be a mouthful and a half.
- You see, in the early days of the wiki (then on Wikia), several articles were copied off MW out of desperation. I'm fully aware of that. However, I purposely go out of my way to differ from MW as much as possible. I simply believe there is way too much DK info on the MarioWiki. In most cases, articles are rewritten to be different from MW, and we've been slowly revamping articles. It's been a gradual process between adding info and changing other info. Currently the wiki has 688 articles.
- Of course we have articles on the exact topic. It happens. There are differing styles in most cases. The DKWiki has some information that MW does not, and the other way around. The same goes with images and such. Even editors have come from MarioWiki to help from time to time. Understandable, the Donkey Kong series is no easy subject to cover.
- Now, us joining does NOT mean transferring content from MW. We're doing this our own way, bottom up. We're in desperate need of articles and coverage beyond DKC, my area of expertise. As I said, gradual process.
- Again, DKWiki is NOT meant to be a MarioWiki clone. Stop talking about nuking wiki pages like that on MarioWiki. I would recommend a SLIGHT lowering of coverage on Donkey Kong on MarioWiki (less extreme).
- I'll personally speed up the revamping progress myself and hold off adding much info for now. I don't believe I've said enough defending the wiki myself, but there's a start. I'll get the other guys to back me up.
Distinguishing content from Super Mario Wiki
- User talk:Atari Jaguar/Archive 1#I am really excited about working on the Donkey Kong Country level pages.: "It is unfortunate that I unknowingly added Super Mario Wiki plagiarized bonus level descriptions, but I'll fix those soon." (The Retro Gamer)
- User talk:Atari Jaguar/Archive 1#I don't think you should have deleted the animated Kong Token image.: "Even if you are trying to differentiate from Super Mario Wiki, trading animation for static images is not the way to do it." (The Retro Gamer)
- User talk:Atari Jaguar/Archive 1#I have some thoughts about your level article layout.: "It actually works because it's not a part of Super Mario Wiki's DK level layout. :) I'd also like to upload some animated sprites from the Atlas (is there a specific way you do it?) Should they replace the static sprites on the wiki? (Super Mario Wiki uses static sprites)" (Atari Jaguar)
- User talk:Porplemontage#Wiki Bot: "Since Super Mario Wiki has one, I thought it would be nice for DK Wiki to also have a bot for maintenance reasons." (Atari Jaguar)
- User talk:Porplemontage#Any way to compare to articles with Mario Wiki quicker?: "I'm curious if it's possible to modify Special:ComparePages so that articles on Donkey Kong Wiki can be checked for plagiarism from Super Mario Wiki (perhaps through Special:Interwiki?)" (The Retro Gamer)
- User talk:Porplemontage#Baron K. Roolenstein: "The page Baron K. Roolenstein needs rewriting because the article is taking from Super Mario Wiki."
- User talk:HavocReaper48#Tiny Kong article: "My plan is to watch DK64 walkthrough videos and then write down what happens--to give a different perspective than what Super Mario Wiki gives on the article." (Atari Jaguar)
- Talk:Donkey Kong 64: "Is there any reason on why this article is almost exactly the same as the Donkey Kong 64 article on the Super Mario Wiki? Don't you think the MarioWiki should get some credit for this?" (Fawfulfury65)
- Forum:Articles on levels: "Due to recent edit wars about them, I made this forum to discuss what should happen to levels on this wiki. I bring a few ideas to the table here: [1.] Be like Super Mario Wiki and make an article per level, complete with snapshots and descriptions, locations, enemies etc." (HavocReaper48)
- Forum:DKL2 level articles: "Merging different levels in the same article makes just as much sense as merging Pot Hole Panic from DKL and DKC3 in the same article (which Super Mario Wiki does for some reason)" (Blaziken257)
- #: "I appear to have a problem here as the levels and sections are not properly written. I propose that the style of the article should be more like Super Mario Wiki's style." (188.8.131.52)
- Forum:Foreign language templates: "BTW, the template was taken from Super Mario Wiki and changed it a bit -- mainly the colors. Hopefully that isn't a problem. " (Blaziken257)
- User talk:HavocReaper48/Archive 4#Template:MarioWiki: "I quickly made a template for things taken off of Super Mario Wiki in my sandbox. Should we use it?" (Manga Maniac)
- User talk:The Awesome#Autoconfirmation: "This is not the first wiki on which you have copied Super Mario Wiki's Autoconfirmed users page and placed it here, you've done the same thing on SmashWiki, and it's about time someone told you this. Not every wiki has the same autoconfirmation rights. If you're going to plagiarize a page from one wiki and plonk it on another, at least do a bit of research into the wiki's actual autoconfimation rights, rather than just Ctrl+F'ing Mario Wiki and replacing it with SmashWiki/Donkey Kong Wiki etc." (ToastUltimatum)
- DKWiki talk:Autoconfirmed users#Plagiarism: "This page has been copied directly from Super Mario Wiki, so could someone who knows the true autoconfirmed rights of this site (I know you don't need 10 edits to be able to make articles, my first edit was the creation of Monkey Flip) edit this page to reflect Donkey Kong Wiki?" (ToastUltimatum)
- User talk:The Retro Gamer#Image Layout: "I did a bit of research and found out that Super Mario Wiki has separate licenses for Game Screenshots and Sprites." (The Retro Gamer)
- User talk:The Retro Gamer#Two Recent IP Edits & A New Users: "My belief why this wiki lacks any activity aside from us is because people probably find no need for this wiki given there's Super Mario Wiki & its DK coverage. But I'm glad to see some more people noticing us. Maybe it's our unique image uploads (and articles)—if that's the case, we should probably replace as many Super Mario Wiki images as possible (unless very necessary) to improve our Google Images search results. " (Atari Jaguar)
- User talk:The Retro Gamer#Two Recent IP Edits & A New Users: "If you do want to promote the site (recommended at a minimal), then try contacting the folks at Super Mario Wiki (namely the DK article editors)." (Atari Jaguar)
- User talk:The Retro Gamer#Putting a DK Coin guide in a level article: "I need your help here figuring out how to incorporate a DK Coin guide into a DKC3/DKLIII level articles, but I don't want the format to be identical to Super Mario Wiki's." (Atari Jaguar)
- User talk:The Retro Gamer#Tables in article layouts: "I think tables need to be used in the level layout for items, DK Coin location and the Bonus Levelsl; the bulleted lists don't look very appealing to me. Super Mario Wiki does not do this." (Atari Jaguar)
- User talk:The Retro Gamer#Level navigation: "Under the former word will be the level that comes before an article's level and the latter declares the level that comes afterward. Kind of like the Levelbox in Super Mario Wiki... That's what I would like for this wiki's Level template to have, but except the level names will be spelled out themselves rather than be arrows (to differentiate from Super Mario Wiki)." (Atari Jaguar)
- User talk:The Retro Gamer#donkeykongcountry.com: "Super Mario Wiki doesn't have articles on the official Mario sites, so I figured that created articles on notable DK-related sites (like this one) would help the wiki get traffic." (Atari Jaguar)
- User talk:The Retro Gamer#donkeykongcountry.com: "And yeah, images from Super Mario Wiki (and other places) are fine, but try replacing them if possible so DKWiki can stand out more." (Atari Jaguar)
- User talk:The Retro Gamer#Appreciation: "I feel this wiki exists alongside Super Mario Wiki because while it covers the Donkey Kong series, people mostly go on that wiki expecting Mario material; the Donkey Kong series tends to be shadowed by it. Also, the Donkey Kong franchise is a major spinoff of the Mario titles, unlike the Yoshi and Wario games." (Atari Jaguar)
- DKWiki:Requests for adminship/Atari Jaguar: "And replaced a multitude of JPG/GIF images with PNG images and removed some images originally from Super Mario Wiki." (Atari Jaguar)
- Template talk:Level#Should the notable features parameter stay?: "Lastly, the Super Mario Wiki DKC/DKL level infoboxes, from what I remember, also has a "Notable features" field. This wiki pretty much believes that it and this wiki should stand out from each other as much as possible, including with infoboxes." (Atari Jaguar)
- User talk:Torey#Super Mario Wiki content: "Hi, I notice you've been copying content from Super Mario Wiki. I encourage you not to and here's why—this wiki is trying to write original articles different from that than other wikis, sites, you name it, for example Super Mario Wiki. In the past, numerous article were copied from Super Mario Wiki, and still today it's in the process of being changed to original article. The reason why Donkey Kong Wiki wants to have original content is so we can be unique, and it's polite to write our own articles and not take from others. If we write original articles, our search results in Google and other search engines may even improve... You're not in trouble—I just don't like when others copy articles from Super Mario Wiki." (Atari Jaguar)
- User talk:HavocReaper48/Archive 7#Concerns: "When you look at Super Mario Wiki, you can see how many policies they have, giving them more structure, although they also appear to have less freedom. I like having freedom, but I also think some more structure and rules should be added to this wiki." (The Retro Gamer)
- Forum:A new path for the Wiki: "As many of the remaining members are aware, DK Wiki activity has been dying out lately, and this is partially caused by our lack of unique content in comparison to Mario Wiki. In an attempt to both revive interest in the Wiki and better differentiate DK Wiki content from Mario Wiki content, I believe that, as a Wiki, we need to find more specific things to cover. A better niche for us, so to speak. Covering more content like famous blatant rip-off games or finding more to discuss when it comes to levels so that we can cover content beyond Mario Wiki's focus. So, I'm opening the niche suggestions to the public. If you can think of a thing that DK Wiki can do to differentiate us from Mario Wiki and draw in interest, please state such things below." (Megatron1)
Users who mention Super Mario Wiki on their user page
- The Forgotten Beast (adminstrator)
- Side Kong
- Helvetia King
- The Awesome
- Yoshi: "For full information, see Super Mario Wiki's article on Yoshi"
- DKWiki:About: "No, this wiki is not meant to be a Super Mario Wiki clone, though some articles here were copied off MW when the wiki was still early. "
- Template:MarioWiki: "This article or section was taken from Super Mario Wiki."
- Help:FAQ#Is this wiki a Super Mario Wiki clone?: "Nope. A lot of content was taken from Super Mario Wiki in Donkey Kong Wiki's very early days, but we are striving to remove the stolen content. True there is some content overlap, but the wikis are considered different."
Includes Super Mario Wiki in the list of NIWA wikis.:
If this were to be merged, there's no reason to lose the dkwiki domain (or the donkeykongwiki domain, although double redirects should probably be avoided). There are several options for redirecting, but here is the one I propose:
Redirect every mainspace page here to its equivalent SMW page. This would use something like
https://www.mariowiki.com/$1. All other namespaces could be redirected to the DKWiki Portal (I guess that would make the above sample implementation problematic, if it wasn't the lowest priority redirect).
- I've been around the Super Mario Wiki for a while, and I know we have a plethora of Donkey Kong related pages. We have articles on the characters, locations, items, etc. Truth be told, the Super Mario Wiki appears to have better information and sources for the Donkey Kong articles than the Donkey Kong Wiki does.
- Now I wasn't a registered user when the wikis were divided into their subjects. Of the four that were created (Mario, Donkey Kong, Wario, and Yoshi), only Mario and Donkey Kong remain because they were active at the time, at least from what I've read in our archives. However, that no longer seems to be the case for the Donkey Kong Wiki. On the seven active users mentioned above, I'm the only one that's provided any sort of substantial content within the last thirty days. And the content I'm working on I've also moved to the Super Mario Wiki, since the two cover the same content.
- Long story short, I support this merge. And should the Super Mario Wiki admin team be notified of this? Alex95 (talk) 14:08, 24 March 2018 (EDT)
- I don't think it's vital that they be notified (it doesn't really affect them aside from some new content, and possibly some question of notability), but I think they would appreciate knowing that content can be grabbed straight from here.
- The other thing is, many DKWiki administrators will lose adminship (including myself). I'm fine with building myself up again, if I'm active on SMWiki. But I think it's a good idea to notify previous DKWiki sysops, just so they have a heads-up (even though most of them are inactive). I can do that.
- In the past, this wiki might have had the potential to have better coverage than SMWiki, but because new original Donkey Kong games are so sparse, I think we will only get new users when a new original DK game comes out. But I'm fine with that being covered on Super Mario Wiki; if the url redirects, that'll work fine, and people probably already use SMWiki for DK content anyway. --The Retro Gamer 14:20, 24 March 2018 (EDT)
- Edit: emails sent to all DKWiki administrators. 15:25, 24 March 2018 (EDT)
- I don't have an issue with merging the wikis. The Super Mario Wiki is a lot more active, and it appears that nearly every user who has edited this Wiki recently also has an account and has made edits on the Super Mario Wiki (and the main reason I created an account here was to revert vandalism). Since we cover pretty much everything on the Super Mario Wiki that the Donkey Kong Wiki covers, and the recently added pages can also be found on the Super Mario Wiki, I would support this merge. --TheFlameChomp (talk) 15:36, 24 March 2018 (EDT)
- I, too, agree that this wiki should be merged with the Super Mario Wiki. Since the Donkey Kong franchise has extremely potent ties to the Mario franchise (besides both franchises stemming from the same root) AND coupling the fact that SMWiki also covers similar franchises with extremely potent ties, such as Wario and Yoshi despite those franchises not having wikis of their own, I'm all for merging for these and the other reasons brought forth by other users. Toadette the Achiever (talk) 17:26, 5 April 2018 (EDT)
- Considering the infinitesimal number of active users on this wiki, the amount of DK content SMWiki already covers, and the fact that there are no wikis for Wario and Yoshi franchises, I support this merge as well.
- (It's okay for a SMWiki-native to vote on this, right?)
- Ultimate Mr. L (talk) (Super Mario Wiki)
I support the merge. There are some things that still need to be worked out (like the whole tiki thing I brought up on our forums), but it’s much better than this wiki taking Userpedia’s route. I’ve seen what an inactive wiki is like (well, I’m one of the top contributors on WiKirby), and this wiki looks pretty sad too. I haven’t played too many DK games, but I will help with this merge in any way I can. I have also noticed the “page on SMWiki” button in the sidebar; that’s pretty cool. However, I have been suggesting aesthetic changes to our DK Portal to help it look more visually appealing. Also, maybe I should note that I remember seeing comments about this merge on old talk archives; was this proposed before in the past, or was I dreaming? -YoshiFlutterJump (talk) 17:13, 16 April 2018 (EDT)
- If you skim the list above, some people have suggested it before, but this is the first time an experienced contributor in an administrative position (me) has suggested it. Most of the people who would have been dedicated enough to become administrators here have probably already moved on to Super Mario Wiki because the content there is generally superior. As a Donkey Kong fan, but not really as much of a Mario fan, I really wanted this project to be able to survive on its own, but after reflecting on the contributions from the last year, I realized that the best place for the content would be Super Mario Wiki. --The Retro Gamer 21:22, 16 April 2018 (EDT)